Anyway, I Thought that I would finish this gigatron thing. Let's go shift. Mouse wheel goes up and down. control.

Mouse wheel goes left and right. You can't right-click and pan. Don't like that. How do you pan? No, it's not alt.

It's not. It's it's not right-click Oh, you hold down the middle mouse. That's right. I hate that.

ID I'm not a fan of clicking the middle scroll wheel. Why can I hold down the the right button and then pan around? That's how like half the other programs in the world work. Click and hold and middle bun. I Don't like it.

It's too much force required on the button. That's like. It's like not a natural thing to click the middle wheel. It like requires a lot of force.

You know it's maybe it's the mouse I've got it's a Logitech thingamabob. Anyway, hey, check this out. I got another camera. Oh look I'm a tag tag tag tag.

Okay, was I yeah cuz I never actually finished this. Anyway, this is where I last left off for those playing around on Eevblog 2 before a couple of months back when I did this? Did someone just say why? Kicad it not out him because the original source file is in Kicad. that's why. no I'm not looking at alternatives.

It just for those who don't know, this is the Gigatron TTL computer which you've seen in a couple of videos on my job but you know I don't I don't like, don't like how they've done the scroll wheel on this? Sorry, just don't like it. This is the Gigatron TTL computer I Want to do a four layer version of this board and the the original designers of the gigatron were kind enough to send me a four kids, send me the Kicad files and obviously I'm not going to convert them to out 'i'm just to do that And so I'm using Kicad. So I've installed the new version Five 5.000 Oh Oh yeah, there you go. and I'm using Pcbnew for those playing along at home.

Where I got up to you last time is I had removed I removed the top and bottom layer. That's right here we go. is that? so that's that's the ground Genius I Tell you because now you can see the menu bar on the left I'm not sure if you can actually can. Yeah, Oh yeah yeah.

look look, you can change. change the docking for this Wow okay uh. Karen how do I read och I don't hold down control shift. oh it's not automatically snapping back I've undock to that permanently I'm not mightily bummed I'm I Woke up this morning and there are no fields owns because these are.

it's a ground plane and there's no VCC ground VCC is not a thing where it. where's my VCC I've got a ground plane but I don't have a VCC dray titlebar to side you want just below the buttons. Oh yeah there there guys haha thanks yeah I didn't notice the shadow in there. cool Maana's hey I can't make that any smaller.

Why can't I make that smaller? Look at all this wasted space down here. dude. all this wasted space I'm gonna drag. look I can drag a bigger I can't drag.

it's smaller. Got wasted space there. Look at that poor you poor GUI design. So did I create that ground plane last time? did I manually When you create a ground plane, do you have to put? do you have to actually manually put in the poor? It in Kicad doesn't have planes, only field zones.

It's tedious. Thanks Joshua Ground plane must be filled manually. Okay. is that the same? I assume that's the same for VC C must be has to be right if it is right.

Okay, so I filled that manually. Okay, so front I I don't like how they use F for front I I just like that's by default and is that like a European thing or something I don't know cuz don't that you know. Isn't it mostly written by Europeans or somebody? but it's like yeah. if I assume if means front B means bottom if means front I Don't like that it's always top bottom.

It's always top bottom. It's like if you that's what that that's what that layer is saying to me. Like it just FCU it's funny. Sorry, it's my childish sense of humor.

Alright, so there's there's bottom layer and there's our top. Our front layer. Screw the top top layer and ground. I've already put in a ground II Doodad.

Alright, so and that means that let's actually just go in. have a look. Yeah, okay, it's already done. the thermal reliefs.

Yep, okay, it's already done. the thermal relieves to the ground plane. So now what its missing Now of course you can see all these white lines. These are the missing.

Nets So yeah, all I've got to do is pour my VCC I Think it should be right and then we should be good to go. How do I pour am pour a fuel? Is it a polygon? I've got a cheat sheet here my cheat sheet does not have B for repour here. Maybe I've got an old cheat sheet or something. Play zone.

Is it? Joshua Seems to be the man create fill select net draw polygon play zone. Oh yeah, zone looks like a fill. Okay, so the call of the zone. Okay, Groovy.

So I'm going to have some pull back on there. All right, you have to have some pull back. tip for young players: never take your ground plains to the edge of the board or outside, even if the tool automatically has a thing to trim. I Don't know if Kicad has the ability to pull back choose our layer, but even if it does, I would recommend not relying on it.

Okay, Thermal reliefs. Yep. Solid through-hole thermal. I Wonder what the difference? Maybe we can play with that later later.

What's I Assume tht thermal is through-hole thermal. What's the what's going to be the difference between the through-hole thermal and the thermal relief I wonder I think you're wrong Gabriel It's not polygon. it's a zone. What is a pullback? That's a good question.

Digital Hands okay I'd Yeah I didn't think as finished my thought there did. I Fundamentals of PCB design on my channel. Ah, there's lots of yeah yeah. I've done walkthroughs I've done like like an hour or like I've done like hour-long walkthroughs of designing a PCB with lots of hints and tips along the way.

sorry I don't know the name of it to hand. It was one of my Power Supply Design series videos. it's it's labeled Power Supply Designed PCB layout or something. Let's go out of here for a second.

Okay, you've when you've got a PCB right? You've got the edge of your board here. The edge is defined on this particular layer. I Don't know which lay are they using. Kicad fabrication layer.

Is it? No, No, it's not the fab layer. Bottom: no mask, pad, adhesive, edge cuts. There we go. They got an edge cuts layer right? So your board is defined by it doesn't have to be on the edge cuts layer.

it can be on the copper layer. It can be anywhere. As long as the PCB manufacturer knows like they they, They know when they see lines like this on it. Doesn't matter what layer it is, they're They're going to know that you're employing that.

That's the Edge year board. now. the edgy aboard. Alright, when they manufacture your PCB right, they use either routing or big guillotines or saws to chop your board up right.

And when they chop your board up, especially if it's a multi-layer board like we're designing here, we're designing a four layer board, so that means that we've got the top copper, the bottom copper and ground and VCC in here. Okay, so what we're doing at the moment is we're actually creating these two inner layers ground and VCC and they're just one big solid copper plane. In this particular case doesn't have to be and they will by default in a lot of packages in In In this case, Kicad does not have planes as such. they're just layers with polygon fills or zones in this particular case.

So but anyway, right if you draw them all the way to the edge like I can't my snap doesn't go in there. It doesn't snap the object anyway. If you take your plane copper plane all the way to the edge of the board where the board gets routed or sword or cut off, then if you've got the copper in the inner layers when they do that when they Slough so a slice or route through it, it can cause little burrs in the copper and then the copper if it's right on the edge of the board can. Yeah, the coppers like right on the edge of the board.

Like that. it's right on the edge and they route or they slice your board. It can actually short those two layers together right? in case you can get little burrs and they can short together. And obviously if you're short your power plane and your ground plane together, that's gonna ruin your day so you don't want that.

So what pull back is called right is I I Do not want to define the copper going right to the edge of the board I Want to pull it back a distance from the edge and a package like Altium will have. You know it knows what planes are and it knows what pullback is and all that sort of stuff. So you can define that. Kicad I believe doesn't what? I'm told here.

Kicad doesn't have that ability so you're going to do it manually. So that's why I'm gonna select rather than go right to the edge I'm gonna leave a gap. pull back around the edge of the board. That's what it is.

so do to do it. Thermal relief I Don't think I ever asked Yes I'm sick. sorry. that's why my voice is crap.

please. Woke up this morning. Now it's fine last night. woke up this morning and probably picked up something from the Germ Factory yesterday.

preschool For those who don't have kids. The Germ Factory We're gonna place a zone we're gonna pull back from the edge. We're going to select the layer we want VCC which is their power and then we select the net that we want. Then if they're not in alphabetical order, why aren't there in alphabetical order? Hidden Net Filter: You know we can guess.

we can just use the net filter fly filter alphabetical. ah must must be called something else. Okay, it's it's probably called +5 or something. Oh, that's right.

that's right They: yeah yeah. The Designers of the Gigatron: Where is it not very good at this Gigatron? Schematic: Create: Yeah, yeah. I think cuz I'm using version 5. we're not found.

Transistor lit well, lots of libraries weren't found. that's not good. Remap: symbols: Project Rescue Helper I I Think has I've got an old that was done in an old version or something. so I will This is heavy.

Okay, so it's mapped. backing up. Rescue: Oh god oh oh it's done. It's it's.

remapping re saving backing up files Oh God Okay I don't like this. Don't like the sound of that. Doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me. Anyway, the Designers of the Gigatron they are hierarchical sheet crunches.

There we go. haha I am now a key cat expert. Um, there looks like they got hidden power pins on there. Do they? They must have.

They don't have power pins on their on their chips. They don't have power pins on the schematics so that must be over on. Yeah, where's like where's my hierarchical list of I so don't know how to use this? Must be painful to watch. For those who have a clue, people are probably screaming at me or bought what leave sheet.

Oh okay thanks I rock your sheet there. We go there we go. greenlight. Flynn Jerae I'm getting I'm getting used to it.

Yeah, they've named. Took me five minutes. get at this point there named the nets here high and low. Somebody just beat me.

It's not going to be Mr.. Christopher J Gamal is it? And yes, so they've labeled them high and low. It's Chris Gamal he's not. He's not a happy camper that I don't know how to use Kicad should I should I embed Chris's chat window up anyway.

yeah, they instead of labeling them ground and VCC areas yes Mr. Gammill say hi Chris he's watching my live stream hi guys wave to Chris I Think your audience might know just as well anything I know Anyway I can't leave your chat window up there because as soon as I click on this stupid thing, it's gonna. it's gonna go. It's gonna vanish.

see anyway. Um yeah. hi Chris bye Chris Anyway, back to this. Yes they labeled them high and low.

Okay, it's fine. Like as long as you know you know I don't know I've never ever seen anyone do that before. h&L Is that like a thing? Does that? Has anyone ever seen somebody do H&l before? High and low? Maybe? Maybe you know. Kisses digital-only and it's a digital only board.

There's basically no analog on it, so it's like high and low. Makes sense. Yeah yeah. VCC And ground of course.

I'm sure. Nope. Never seen H&l on a digital board. Never seen it.

Nope. Nope. No. H on old tube schematics.

Oh yeah, you'll get H+ that's or you get HT HT for like high tension on old tube stuff that was common. You see it on homebrew stuff all the time. v VF V fused. Yeah, you know, like I would understand that like if I saw V VF I'd you know it wouldn't take me long to guess that that's fused.

Haiti Nell sends more like a can than a power rail. Yeah. Anyway, anyway there you go. There you go.

Well, just sidetracked enough. H&l So that's the net I need to wear. We've already done ill because the only Nets we're missing based on these white net lines. They tell us that that there are none routed.

Nets as the term us looking for, they're the unrouted nest and I guess Key Care by default has unrouted nets on which is great. So I've explained pullback. so let's go in and let's place our zone again. Once again, we've got pullback.

We're putting it on the VCC layer. I'm not gonna relay Madden rename at H anyway Hi H Yeah, there we go. Alright, so we're gonna do thermal relief. as I said before I Don't know the difference between thermal relief and through-hole thermal relief, but I did thermal relief before on the ground plane I believe And that that seemed to come out fine though, we can change that.

Not sure what the default difference is there I wonder if you can set those up I wonder if you can actually defy Are they fixed in Kicad or are they can you go in and like have a user-defined pad connection? Like to know that Mm-hmm like I assume that you can set the diameter and or like the width of the traces whether you want to connections for your thermal relief that goes horizontal or vertical, or whether or not you want to cross or whether you want diagonal or whether however you want to. Yeah, so anyway, thermal relief. I'm not sticking around where we're gonna. We're gonna connect on the VCC layer to H today.

I Know that there it is. sorry arbitrary. There you go. You can define it.

You do it in here. Horizontal and vertical and 45-degree Only There you go. Um, so I Answered my own question. Outline style, hatched fill mode: polygons or segments.

Boundary mode: Low resolution, High resolution. Not sure what that is. When it gets towards a boundary condition near an edge, it maybe takes longer the process or something. Corner smoothing Ah sham for Phillip Mmm.

Clearance minimum width okay and we can do our yes, of course it's all in here. I should have just looked before I start I started yappin' on saying you know I wonder if it's got all this stuff and it's like right in front of me Dear D Anyway, and it has all the stuff I was talking about right in front of me? Yes I won't mention it. Anyway, yeah, all the parameters are in the window. Exclamation mark: Alf Our Fredo knows settings to other zones.

Okay, cool. Anyway, it's not tick around. All right. 40 hatched.

Yeah, good old hatched ground plane. People don't do hatched ground planes anymore. That was all the rage back in the 70s and 80s. Anyway, here we go.

So we're creating our zone. I Won't say polygon because polygon is a different thing, isn't it? and we've got our pullback. I'm not sure the distance of that pullback, but who cares? it's good enough. Not not even sure what grit spacing I'm using where where is it? It's down the bottom somewhere grid 1.2 750 Milk and Tada and there we go.

I Assume we have to go back up the top, walk and I just right-click and get out of it and it will complete Tada. There it is. I Like that feature there that it shows you that it's you know it hasn't bothered to filling that I Guess it's kind of neat. It's a little bit visually messy to appreciate that.

What's going on here? Some silly buggers happening in there. Do they have like invisible pads or something in that footprint? Anyway, it has joined. There you go. It has joined all those in there.

And why do we have an undoubted net? Wow Why do we have still have a few unrouted net connections? Maybe they're on the top side? Look, if you were a few of these white lines, the heart feature turned on. it's called the love heart of Death. Okay, you can't set clearance between tracks of different classes. really.

Try and hit B I did hit B and it just rebuilt. What's it doing? Sorry I missed that in zones. a tree bird rebuilds the zone. Okay, great, something weird going on here.

Well, it's not weird. It's obviously there's a reason for it. Okay, so there's our lo. Oh okay.

Oh okay. there's a couple of low ones which weren't connected. No, yes, they are okay. so they're they're nothing.

Do a VCC Well hi. this one here is look high look H right? So oh look at that. look at that. We have a dag.

I've got a dag. We found it. There we go. Yeah, that.

we've got a genuine dag. Little little bit of track in there. so it's going. So if we did a ADRC on this a design rule check it would say that you've got some floating copper.

I Don't know what it would call it in Kicad, but you know that's basically it's it's floating copper. It's unconnected copper. so we want to kill that and our trace goes away. So we're now I'm wearing out basically our our tidy-up phase of our PCB.

Let's assume that we had routed this and then we're in the point where we're just making sure all of the Nets and where we've connected all the Nets we've got no unconnected. Nets You might at this stage do a DRC and you might get a report and you might put that on a second screen so that you have your report there and then you just go through and you might have 20 things that aren't connected because of that floating copy you had there. or you know, some other issue or something like that and you just go through and tighten them all up until you get a DRC zero DRC errors and then there's lots of other things before actually releasing your board. But anyway, why don't What? Why doesn't L come in here? Is there a no? Because we're using a ground plane so it should work So ground.

and VCC Yeah, look, why is it going? Oh, is there another bit of dagi copper out here? Yeah, there we go. Another dag. It's another dag. that's that's leftover.

That's Um, that is totally unsurprising because this. no, no, not actually because they use zones and I just deleted the zones because this, was originally a two layer board. Okay, and they they would have filled in the copper. The positive and negative rails on the two layers on the top and bottom layers as zones as fills.

and yeah, look, yeah. Well, we've now. We've now got a bunch of. oh, don't a flip.

Yeah, we've now got a bunch of these. See: I've got a bunch of floating coppers, so it's a bunch of DAG So even though I actually deleted those, it shouldn't have left little residual DAGs Like that. So that's that's. really rather surprising.

There's another one down here. So I don't know where these little residual DAGs came from? Isn't a big deal. What is this? What Is this? Is this? Some sort of registration? Like you know, test coupon? If so, I don't really understand it. Okay, that's that.

Doesn't even match the trace width. You know that doesn't even match the minimum trace width. So I'm not sure what's going on there. For those who don't know, Often, you'll usually do this outside the board.

You usually won't do it on the board because it's just visual pollution. Well, some people do and it's fine. You'll have a test coupon it goes by various other names, but you will generally put it on the outside of the panel and you'll put things like the the minimum trace width that your manufacturer can do. So you'll put a couple of lines on there to set like minimum trace and Speight minimum trace and space and stuff like that.

and you might put some alignment markers for. you know you might put some silk screen over the copper for example. And what you do that for is that when you get the board back from the manufacturer you can look at the test coupon and it's got all of the information in there. You need to check the manufacturing quality of that board so you can see it.

You can go. So you put up under the microscope and you have a look and you can see the alignment of the layers you can. You might pull back your copper there so you can see all all through the different layers and you see the alignment of the masks. That and everything sold.

A mask, your silkscreen top and bottom, your copper. You know stuff like that, whether or not they've overreached or under it. you can get em in there with your micrometer and you can actually measure you know if you're you know forth our track is actually fourth hour. You know what how how much they're out by, have they over etched the thing? You know all that sort of stuff.

So it's common to add a test coupon for this board I Don't care right? We're not pushing the envelope here. but if you are, you know if you had a board that had 3000 saw something, you know you're really getting down there to like a real dense board then you'd maybe want that because especially if you've got a big large complex board and everything's really dense. You've got really thin traces, you've got really fine pitch stuff that need really good alignment being Mm pin BGA's and stuff like that that need real critical alignment on the solder mask, and all sorts of things. Then a test coupon is absolutely vital.

So on a a professional board you would do that, something that you do. So anyway, there's another one, we got one. Let's go around and get all the decks. I'm getting used to this.

I'm getting used to it another day or look naughty naughty. Uh, greater than 90 degrees. Bad design. Practice dock your day is pay As an older color your mine used to say if you did that I'd dock your day's pay.

It just goes back to the old. The reason that you don't do that. you have sharp angles like that. It's not so much an issue these days because the process tolerances are like the the process controls are really good on manufacturing boards.

These days, they're just stunningly good. But you know, back in the old days and well, it's still the case this these days. when the board is in there, when the boards in the etch path get in itched and the etchant you know they. They use like a bubble edge so it's all bubbling around in there, right? so it's all swooshing around so the wind that when that acient Eva ammonium persulfate or ferric chloride I Don't know if they use anything else in industry, they might might be some special mixture.

Anyway, it's all agitated in there, right? so the swell of of the etchant in there. When you've got sharp angles like that, it can sort of like it, like builds up in there and it can etch more away. So in theory, you could actually get over a chin in that particular space there. So that's why you don't want sharp angles like that.

You have 90 degrees or nothing and then a lot of people will say oh, I don't even like 90 degrees because that's also and it's also called an A, an etching trap or an acid trap. And so if you've got really sharp angles like that all there, all the etchant you know in theory can sort of like yeah, even though it's only really thin, right? and it never and generally just washes over the top, it does actually potentially etch away more of the trace in there. If you got really thin traces, you can get breakthroughs on your tracers. or you know, so it's it's really bad.

So that's called an acid trap or an etchant trap. And so some people would think that even ninety degrees is an acid, right? So they'll put a filler, then they'll put a chamfer right, and and PCB packages will have shampoo. You know options. They sham for all of you though.

it will auto sham for your tracers for you, you know? and some people like like that look. and I don't blame them, you know it's pretty funky. I'm you know I probably went through it a fillip phase you know. And And and the other thing is tear drops as well.

Now that we're talking about this, see like, see. The problem here is is this trace here right? So coming down on the this this trace here, right? this is not. This is not good layout, right? You don't have your trace coming down and then at an angle. like even though it might be angling in here properly and it might be physically connected.

I Don't like that Kicad doesn't actually know there it is. it's hidden. see I didn't like that that was hidden right? So it's it's going to the center which is all great. Okay, then you've created the acid trap in there, right? It's It's just not good design technique to actually do that.

So I don't know if we can I don't know how to move? Yeah, so that's that's not good layout practice to go like that. Never enter. Basically never enter. The rule is never enter a pad at anything but 45 degrees or 90 degrees.

right? In this particular case, we're entering sort of like, well, we are entering at 45 but it's coming right? down and touching it so it shouldn't It should have come down like that, maybe gone in like that and then down so you know I didn't like. it's just minor thing and then there's minor tidy up. Things like this like you know if I was a PCB de Mille am a piece of it right? But if I was laying in, what I meant to say is if I was laying out this board right I could not live with this right as a that's a professional piece I like I could not live with that I would have to tidy that up right? So I dragged those flat like there's no reason to have them going like that. There's no electrical reason why that's a problem.

Okay, it's not. it's did. It's visually so you know stuff like that. but by the way, don't be harsh on the on the guys who did this because it was their first rodeo and this was like that they learnt to use I think I believe they said that they learnt to use Kicad.

This was like their first layout like ever. you know and look other things in there that's just going straight through. that's really. you know that's a bit how you're doing you know? So they did really well for their first board ever.

Here we go got more DAGs looking for DAGs another one I guess we should just do a DRC right? Yeah, it's it's not necessarily an and maybe it isn't OCD thing, but you know it's it's just taking pride in your PCB layout. You know any professional PCB designer will have pride in their layout and you know just and I thought I saw another day you know, have it having something as simple that right would like. just show that you show that you don't care. you know and like it wouldn't matter to anyone.

like it's just. you know it's as purely a self satisfaction thing. but anyway, they've they've They've done a pretty good job on this layout like it's it's their first time doing anything and I'm really impressed that they actually got the you know they're out in the placement and everything is really quite decent. So it's it.

really is a good job. There says I'm a Pads here you go. Yeah, that explains that right? So how do I run a DRC design rules, Checker rules, design rule or rules. Oh you can measure and listen.

It's groovy. See, hang on, hang on I Just want to try. Whoa. Look, there's another.

yeah, another none right angling there sorry I know I'm just I'm just around now I want to UM How do I tidy that up? No I'd know I don't want to know I don't want to because no, the whole idea of this doing this is so that it's exactly the same layout as before. It's exactly the same I changed nothing. So I don't want people going. Oh, but you move the traces.

inspect designer or checker. how do we switch modes? How do we switch from Imperial to metric inches of myth? So I can't do it within here. see if I was inside out here might be able to hoc here be able to hotkey Imperial Metric straight with inside the dialogue box left toolbar inches and millimeters doesn't do it inside the dialog box you see I am actually sorry you can't see it cuz it's under the chat window. but I'm actually clicking on the millimeters and inches thing and which is fine but it doesn't reflect in the open dialog boxes so it may be that that's a you know it's a programming thing there we go.

inches, trace with give it to me in sours like seriously, when you're doing DRC's Kicad developers, when you're when you're doing a DRC you're not working in inches. Okay, you're working in thousand thousandth of an inch by having it. Display point: Double. Oh, Seven Eight is ridiculous.

This should not be in inches. It should be in thousandths of an inch. Okay, that's just that's just silly. That is absolutely silly.

Please, please please change that. That's just insane, right? I Don't want to have to be through multiple decimal places? That's that's visually that's terrible. Muriel Please fix it. Anyway, So we're talking.

You know, Seven Point Eight. For those Imperial fanboys, we're talking about seven Point eight. thou minimum track width and minimum via size of fifteen point seven track widths. Where's where's our spacing clearance by net our clearances by neck class Wow Okay, right and we can't click on that.

Oh look, you can just go list unconnected pads or tracks unconnected items. There you go. Pad sixteen on FCU internal non copper. Can we just click on that? Yes, there we go.

Found our Dag. Here you go. found our tag. So that was the unconnected thing.

How do we get back to our dialog? See, our dialog box is gone. That's that's no good. I Want my dialog box to stay open? Please Like Because if I've got this dialog box on another screen like you know, I'm a professional designer and I've got my moly screens and I'm I'm you know, doing the business right. and I so I've got this thing like it's half off the screen.

so on the other screen here lists unconnected items. There we go. It didn't even did that. Not refresh.

see it popped up right. Maybe understandable. but I Go click on this right I'm I Want to jump to this and my dialog box vanishes. Why I Want the dialog box open please? I want it left open.

We've got another dag. so it's finding all our tags which is good. And yes, I caused some unconnected items. So items like like item, it doesn't know what it is.

Of course it knows what it is. It's a track, right? It's got an unconnected cop up. It knows it's copper, right? So anyway, unconnected items. but I guess when you're doing DRC of it, you can do DRC on silkscreen and sold about Slayers So you know you should go unconnected copper because it knows it's not an item.

It's copper. Unconnected count. Okay, lists unconnected. We can redo it anyway.

There you go and takes us in. I The thing is, it doesn't zoom see. it doesn't zoom. Here's another thing.

if I'm out like this, all right and I'm off off over here with the ferries. Let's let's try this. Hmm. Design a real checker.

I'm sure there's a shortcut for that list. unconnected. Why did that change? Oh no. Oh wow.

Okay, so it's centered. The good thing is that centers look okay. so that's nice. That's that's nice.

Unfortunately, we don't have multiple ones anymore. I could go in and create multiple ones just to show you. but every time you click on it. so I assume if we had the list back here and we clicked on it, it would move around.

but you notice it doesn't zoom in so I can't see diddly squat detail on that. I shouldn't have to set the correct zoom level first and then you know, do that like it should. At least go to some manageable zoom, some workable zoom level so that I can see the thing that's failing. Okay, so now I've got to go in.

and now I've got to go like that. Alright to see it. And when you've got a big list of stuff like this, you want to have your dialog box off than the other screen. You want to click on each thing and then you want it to like jump.

Just jump around the board to see what all the errors are and stuff like that. So yeah, Keek had developers. please add that ability. Okay, so we're good.

Least unconnected. So we got diddly-squat unconnected. Beautiful. So everything's everything's.

hunky-dory So if we start our design rule checker, but Boop Pad clearances, tract clearances, checking zone fills, zone to zone clearances we don't have any of those because we're don't have multiple zones on multiple layers unconnected pads keep out areas, tests, texts, items on disabled layers finished and we're good. Yay! In theory, we can just go get it manufactured keep clicking the wrong thing to scroll around. So anyway, now we've got our like. So that's our top copper.

Here's our bottom copper and we've got our VCC plane and they're the thermal. Leaves look good. No walkers I can just see them. sorry if you can't see them.

Yeah, no, no problem whatsoever. that's not gonna cause a problem. Solder and wise, you know we could I don't know what's the thickness of those. they're They're like 15th Our traces 15th Our Fiora leaves can we? How do I edit my zone I Can't double click on my zone? Why? Why can't I double click on my zone Help: I have to click the edge of the zone.

What? Really Ok, even if there's nothing else. even if even if I've got all the other layers turned off right. Whoa. Just slow down there for a second.

So even if I've got all the other layers turned off, there's nothing else under here. You're telling me that I can't double click on that. That sucks. That's just terrible.

Muriel That is terrible, right? I Like I cannot like Even if you have multiple items there, when you double-click on it, it should pop up with a box and say which item would you like sir and it like yeah I Think you know small things like this. just your nice spit and polish. Um, you know I like um I'm not saying it's bad, right? but it's it could be a lot better right to to have to go to the edge and select it like that Oh See I can't Even then, How do I though? n--'s and how do I? How do I edit my zone? I've got my zone selected. damn it.

Sorry for edit I'm exactly pointing all these things out. Free and open source is terrible on one spit-and-polish Yeah, yeah, well. you know, like it. it takes a long time to get spit in.

Polish ee4 edit that makes sense I mean my cheat sheet my G she doesn't have easy on it. you sent some cheat sheet obviously. All right there you go. So did we actually find out what this is? what the difference is? tht thermal doesn't look any different, does it doesn't look any different? Clearance: Minimum Width: Nante Pad spoke with yes, 20,000 map.

Jeez no you can take that down to 10. must be greater than the minimum width. Oh yeah, fair enough. was just testin a little bit thinner.

15th our 20,000 more relief. that's pretty chunky just for completeness. You know for OCD reasons we'll we'll do that on our grant on our copper er now ground plane as well or out L Bus Air you know Workers: 15 Fair plenty, plenty. All right so we're good.

I should bloody save this should night haven't haven't crashed yet I Don't what? I really want to save as I just want to save for layer PCB Yeah yeah happy with that. just save it over the same file. yes yeah, that's clearance around then I walk is alright so I yeah probably good to go. you know I can do a lot more checking and stuff but really I think that is that is fine.

You should be good to go cuz the whole idea is that I didn't want to touch it anything, didn't want to touch a thing except convert it to a 4 layer. PCB and I don't want copper on the top or bottom and don't want any copper fill because the whole idea for those who don't know the whole concept of this is that I want to show the difference in EMC in radiated emissions of a two layer board with ground fill top and bottom. You know, just like fill in copper everywhere in higgledy-piggledy against a solid ground plane. and I think this could be a quite a good example of that.

So you can get a better example, but I'd have to manufacture I'd have to design a better example I just have this one to hand and I think it's good. Surpasses all the DRC's I think we're I think we're good to go. Jeez, we don't have much look at our poor vias there but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna change anything I'm gonna leave it right I would have had because your risk a break out there. Okay, ain't annual a ring around the via there right that? I don't know the I could go in there and measure it Alright, thank you.

There it is right. there's inches. I wish you could like toggle between inches and millimeters in in the dialogue box. That would be really nice right? And so we've case.

Oh we've got a 23,000 Sauer drill 15.7 Sauer drill. It's good enough, all right. But anyway I I wouldn't that's not you know I did that just looks a bit thin II to me side anyway I'm not not going to touch it. The board's gonna be the same.

I I Don't think I have to do anything else like this is not a production board right? I just it like this is a one-off I just want one right? So I'm gonna. so I'm not gonna fuss over other things I've done my DRC it's all connected. it should work. but it's a four layer board like Emma and we don't have to worry about like other stuff like 15.

So oh look, it's at a chair furs. oh look, it not pretty. You know it's added the champers. What was that an option? Hey, was that a secret option? and it's ER and it's rounded them too in that groovy.

All right. maybe that was an option in that polygon fill box. Anyway, like stuff like you know, like we're not talking high currents here. so you know, having for for traces at 15th hour actually connecting through to the ground plane, everything else it's You know it's fine.

Don't worry about it. We're good to go our 3d. Everyone wants a 3d viewer? Yes, we should. Yeah, before you get anything manufactured.

Thanks for kind of reminding me we should actually have a look at the 3d view. There you go because the the best thing about the 3d view is it's what you see is what you get. You can see the solder mask expansion on the pads like you can see. you know you can see.

That's about like I Know you can test these in DRC But there's nothing like actually looking at what your board is going to look like, right? Absolutely nothing. actually. let's just hang on. So how do I? How do I do that yet? There we go.

That's how I do daddy it. That's a technical term for Duden Technical term do daddy in I Just hold down the left thing so that that's all groovy. you can see exactly what you're getting this. There's no silkscreen on the bottom see exactly what you're getting.

How far can we go in? Come? Can we go it into the layers? Like your canon out him there? Yeah. a few little artifacts if you little render artifacts around there. I was about safe. we need to add.

Get rid of that pesky pesky copper. So how do I place text Dave cared for Leia that'll do so I Just know at a glance which board is what. here we go. just whack it under there.

that'll do Dave CAD for layer. Yep, good to go. All right yeah. I won't die I'm knockin is this is not gonna be a tutorial.

How to how to do a PCB the steps going through for getting your PCB made. it's passed DRC And there's no. there's no unconnected jobs. Well I Like the fact that it has least unconnected as separate to the DRC It's kind of good, you know I could say they are kind of different steps.

you know in in the check-in process after you've finished a board. So kind of like that you know like a DRC will find unconnected stuff right? That's I would I don't have any errors now. but but I presume if we ran start DRC before with those floating coppery bits and stuff like that that you know it would have, it would have picked those up. Let's try it.

sorry I don't know. like the key the shortcut keys for this. you know what? Let's go back to our silk layer select copper layer right? We're on our copper layer place. Oh okay, right because it knows it's a line instead of a trace.

that's why I Also bit confused because so it all. it's so. it knows that if I'm placing a line boom, it jumps back to the nearest layer that has lines which would be the silk right? because it's a non copper. so that's interesting.

So how do I place my track track display Mo: What's track display Mo: What's K Oh yeah, right, that's the thing I was thinking of before I thought there was another layer on top of that. add new track X Why is there no place track under there? Am I blind? So X there we go. Beautiful. Alright, so I've got our floating copper.

Alright it. let's just put it to H right? Okay, so god we've now got our error. Okay, Blue, that automatically comes up sweet ass. So we've go to our DRC and we start our DRC Ah, they're different.

They're two different processes that's interesting. Okay, I guess it makes sense. If you design real check, it is your design rules. It's not connection based thing.

But anyway. yeah, so they've They've decided to separate those. Oh okay. I've got no complain about that.

It was nice to check that. Okay, so if we list the unconnected boom, there it is, right? Okay, I've got no issue with that at all. Curious to know, curious to learn? Ah, leave that, leave that okay. Like for all the smarts in apparently, you know it's all got the or, you know, whiz-bang super auto, interactive audio routing and stuff like that.

It can't do a simple thing like straighten that trace right. It should know that I'm being a Fanny fusspot and I've moved my cursor over to here. It should know I intend to make that flat. Okay, but it's just rigidly sticking to the rules in that to the snap grid, it's just rigidly sticking to the snap grid.

And is there a way around that break the trace first? No, we don't want to break the trace first. That's okay. No, no no, this is no no. Is this just wrong.

No, I should not have to break that trace and then rejoin it or whatever. I should just be able to take that trace drag it and it should overrule. Can I do not shift. Oh no, no, it should know.

It should know that I want to straighten that up. It knows where my cursor is, right. It knows where my cursor is. It should know that I'm over that.

Ah, thanks for telling me that I'll join it straight across. All right No I don't want to use X and draw a new trace. No I don't want to change my grid size. See no.

I'm sorry. But as somebody who worked it out him and advised on this sort of stuff okay, that was my job. It out him is to advise on this sort of stuff is that this is not how a professional PCB designer wants to work. Okay, a professional PCB designer to fix that does not want to have to break the trace.

They don't want to have to delete the traces. They don't want to have to dick around with their grid size. They don't want to do anything. They want the software to know their intention and overrule the snap grid.

That's what they want to do. Okay, yeah, I know key codes. not out him and this is constructive feedback to the Kicad team. Okay, is that something simple like that can make the Int and can make the routing experience much better, right? I've come into this package cold I Know nothing about this package, but as a professional PCB designer, that's what I want to do a simple thing like that and you're forcing me to either break the trace or change my snap grid.

No wrong, Please fix it. I Mean this in the bit it's not criticism of I Mean this in its constructive feedback to the Kicad team. What? Richard asks a good question. Why did a professional PCB designer put tracers off grid? well? I I didn't design this board, but there are many reasons why you would do that because you're very often changing your as it when you're designing a board, especially a complex one.

You are changing your snap grids and visual grids all the time. You are changing them all the time for various reasons that I won't go into it like you're a mixing Imperial and metric component surface, mountain, through-hole You're doing all sorts of other stuff you're working on high density stuff versus you know, larger stuff like that. And there's many reasons why you might have a grid, traces off grid and stuff like that. especially when you're doing interactive audio routing and stuff like that, which won't.

You can overrule the grids and stuff like that. So there's many reasons why you want to do that. and so I should not be forced to have to change the grid to match that. It's just dumb.

it should do it. I'm sorry unless I'm completely wrong and then it's a way to do it. but I'm sure everyone would be screaming at me if there was a way. Yeah, no.

Okay, Glen Fair enough, you know. submit my suggestions to Kicad. Thanks! James Jane sorry Jane says I'm right of course I'm right I Know what I'm talking about? Just lower it enough. Oh okay, you lower the grid enough.

but I shouldn't have - I shouldn't have to touch the grid. That's the entire point. and trust me anyone, any professional PCB Designer I Guarantee you will agree with me I Guarantee you Anyone who's done any serious P large-scale PCB Designed would absolutely agree with me that you shouldn't To change that grid is just like it's gonna cause frustration in using the tool. Just draw a new one.

I don't wanna have to draw a new one. Why should I have to draw a new trace That is ludicrous. Okay, I should just be able to drag and tidy up. This is a step in the PCB layout process is going through and tidying up stuff like this.

Okay, because you might have all these residual things left. You might have these residual things left over because you've moved. You know you've pushed and shoved or routed and you're moving all over the place. And as a final pass, you're going through and you're just tidying up stuff like this and you know I did.

It should be trivial to do that and it's not okay. and I know you might think it's trivial. just change the grid size, just delete the track in place and you want or just place a new track and it is totally beside the point. Okay, trust me.

if you had this, you and you saw the difference in productivity on a huge board that has thousands of components, tens of thousands of traces, and things that you have to tidy up as a professional. PCB Designer right? it? Okay, I can do this right. I'm trying to place a new track. All right.

I'm doing the X thing. Ah, there we go. Okay, it took it, got rid of it. It's kind of groovy undo.

but I shouldn't have to place a trace. I should just be able to drag it around. see when I placed a trace it was the wrong with. yeah, it didn't even do the pickup.

Okay, it does. Oh I'll ask. This does Kicad have the ability to automatically pick the existing trace size from the trace I connected to to have the ability to automatically pick the trace size and overall the current trace size to the tracker that I'm editing right? Because you know generally you do not want to make it to neck that down which is what it's called. that's the industry term fee.

When you go to a thin trace to neck it down, there is a button for that drop down trace sizes. it can button at the top. Oh all day track with when starting to ease to use its width. Otherwise, thank you.

It's got it. It's got it. Okay, Okay, so you've got to enable that. Okay, that's groovy.

All right. Well done Kicad. Nice. That did it.

Fantastic. Okay, happy. but I'm not happy that sorry I want to undo that but I'm not happy that it doesn't allow me to drag. Yeah, it does have features.

Yeah. I will stand corrected every time I have not used this. Okay, this is literally the first time I've used Kicad 5id I'm just you know. add in my commentary as I Go now.

Try drawing a new trace from out for to under under read right? Yeah, All right. Again, like we could go into this forever. I don't know if I'm in OpenGL view mode. push the lowest connection up.

should fix them all. Yeah, but I want to drag just one and if it did push them, then if there happened to be the same spaces, it might work. but then again, it might not. If there higgledy-piggledy kicad needs to do what I mean mode look I'm not bout bad-mouthing Kicad.

It's a very impressive and usable package. Okay III just want to make that clear from my just using it from her. you know for the last hour and the previous time that I used it I I know as a professional piece interview now it's a very powerful and capable package. There's just you know I just offer some constructive feedback in things.

Drag but one is limited to the grid. if dragging multiple will go beyond the grid. Okay, drag item or drag. Yeah, there you go.

So yeah, you know I just want tidy up my work. It's not my work, but you know. Anyway, not around right to say okay, how do we generate at Gerber's sure there's probably a print board is that it print is print gobis or is print print generic options? It looks like print print looks like paper print can you? PDF So I can import spectra and XF can export spectra, gencode, VRML and step fabrication outputs. footprint.

position your file footprint. Now let's fire a bomb plot. Now put Gerber's there you go. Alright, so okay, whoa, sorry wrong screen.

Alright so this is how go Postscript SVG DXF Wow A PDF There you go. Yep. so generating our Gerber's you win our FC You love it. VCC Ground a copper and you know we don't have an adhesive layer.

don't have a paste layer. We only have a top silk. We don't have a bottom silk and seldom asked front and back solder mask drawings and edge cuts which is our board outline. I Think that's that's all we need am I missing anything Drills is the button bottom button.

Oh you can run run DRC from here. That's handy. Yeah you should have already done that. Save reports, generate drill files.

Okay, what okay do we need to Generate drill files. first? Okay, bottom, right. Generate your files. Okay, so we'll go to our layers.

We've got top copper, inner planes, bottom copper, top silk. There is no bottom silk. We've got ours top and bottom solder mask. That's all we need.

And our edge cuts. Edge cuts. Just weird. Names should be like board outline something like that edge cut so don't get that and so generate your grill.

Drill files. Okay, we're going to have excellent format. Inches doesn't matter Joule Map file format and Mira Why? Now we don't know. Absolute Auxiliar.

We don't want an exhilarating no, we want absolute decimal format, suppressed leading zeros. We're not fasting that precision to four. That'll do it. Generate your file.

So I think all the defaults are good to go later through a non-player through in single file. I Don't think we have any. Oh yeah, there's five. None There it is.

There's five non plated pads. This is not a production board generating I Know, ya know it. We've created separate files. There you go.

Created plated through-hole and non plated through-hole Check the option to combine them as an option. for that. was it. Oh okay.

and in single file. Not not recommended. Only used for board houses which asked for merged. No.

I'd I Always do it separate. You want to do them separate the PCB manufacturers. No, like you don't have to muck around with that. So anyway.

Yep. Done. So I've generated real files and then we work it just plotted I Expect it. I'm not expected it to ask something.

it just did it. So if our FCU Gerber is created now VCC our ground I Like how it how it names them, that's good. If silk f mask go about edge cuts, it's all good. I Do I Think we're probably done.

Does it have a gobo viewer? really? PCB Away Asked for a combined why? Why can't they just do it? Why can't these to take both files and import them? Yes in viewer Yes in the launcher. blah blah blah blah blah Okay, so some someone said it's in the viewer. Alright, let's go to the Gerber viewer. Yeah, there it is.

Yeah, okay. open Gerber files on the current layer. So I've gotta open them. do I Okay, there we go.

It's created them tonight, so these are the original ones. Okay, so we don't want those. okay. can we go for multiples? Yep.

Yeah, We good. Hey, we're in. okay. Can I delete all that? Whatever.

I Don't think here we go. Scoop of yours All right isn't it? It's over later by default. Yeah. Does it have any like, um, any checking any desire or is just just a viewer? Yeah, it's not a professional production tool.

Okay, it's showing the showing the outline here. Where does that come from? Showing the I Didn't think that we printed, didn't think that we printed the whys got the sheet on there. We didn't print a sheet or is there is that generated in the in? Just the Gerber viewer does that. I showed the sheet before he imported.

Thank You Clayton All right, Yeah, All right, yeah. Ed Dukas I I Was just confused I Didn't think that it was possible for it to. There's no edge cuts in cuts. I Find that just that name fascinating.

No. So yeah, the Gerber's look good. They're all lined up. We didn't goof anything.

And because you can goof it up with absolute origin versus you know, yeah, other reference. So there you go and we won't check for our pullback. Like I said, here's the important stuff. Okay, you do not want this copper to go right to the edge because if you do, especially no more, you lay a board.

And especially given that the inner planes are usually on a prepreg, a very small prepreg, it's called very thin prepreg. They're They're not usually quite thin actually together. So when you saw the edge of the board off or route it off or do whatever. yeah, you can get the birds and you can easily short out your copper planes.

So huge trap. Many people have come a guts are on that one. Yeah, so you want that. You do not want that copper to go to the edge of the board.

Sure what's going on there? Actually that what? Why is that not a pear? Didn't look like that in the PCB designer? Is that Oh, is that a goober rendering issue? Goober command IDs Yeah, Need to add more sharper sections or something. High high quality / low quality. Oh okay, is there? Basically we just want to know that the you know the goobers are all lined up. Nothing looks out of place.

There's no, it's no DAGs as our VCC layer. So I think we're good to go I Think we're done well. that needs to be done in the PCB layout. did I? Oh okay, right.

that was actually at the PCB level. Was it okay? PCB applaud to use low. Okay, so it occurred back in the PCB stage. Low low-quality polygons for speed.

Okay, there's 1632 selection of how many segments on a circle. Okay. Thank You Lucas Key Care does not seem to export circles on planes. Okay, right.

cool. All right. Thanks guys. I I think I'm done I'm yeah.

I'll get this board. get this board manufactured. How big is the board? Sorry, that's just myself. Finish this off.

Let's go all the way with: LBJ How How big is the board? Can we? Can you give us dimensions? anyone? Can you give us like inspect May I Know we can measure but I Want to see if it can do it from the cuts. you know edge cuts is there like a board information thing. display options So a board information tool in the bottom? right? No. yeah, there's a measure tool.

Yeah, no. I don't a measure the distance I Want it to automatically give me stats about my board because it knows how big my board is. It's got that edge cuts outline I want it to be able to tell me? so have that have been an ability? that would be nice? I would like it to just tell me your board is X by X it's got 2,000 components and yeah, yes, place measure tool. Okay, you know that looks like the only thing you can do all right.

See it should be able to snap. it knows I'm on that. Oh thank you Potato Potato for your $10 super chat. That's generous I Love your videos! I've learned so much I've been working with Eagle for about five years and just recently switched the audio and want to take my boards to the next level.

Any tips I don't know I've done as I said before early in the stream I've done A but if you if you already have five years experience using Eagle but I've already done a video was part of my Power Supply Design series laying out a board and I walk. It's like walkthrough commentary laying out the board. and I've got manufacturing design rule videos. They're massively popular.

It's one of my most popular videos. got like 800,000 views or something. It's Huge. I've done a couple of those like there's at least part 1 and part 2 for the manufacturing design rules and stuff like that.

penalisation is a big thing, part of part of the production side of stuff you know penalizing things. if you want to take your boards to the next level is integrate a test solution into them and I've done a video on that. how to integrate test in into your boards like edge connectors so that you can plug in, test jigs and and test. You know 10 50 boards all at once on the panel which you know So yeah, maybe you know if you're If you're serious about it, go get do the IPC certification course.

get a the Cid certification I'm I'm a CID certified PCB designer they often run in depends where you live and stuff like that but they're not cheap. but if your company can pay for it, maybe they've got a training budget try and they have to spend the early training budget if you're doing PCB design at work. I Would highly recommend the CID course. For example, how do you know the size of my board? Nine point two, five or six point two five? Yes! So those things I recommend to take your PCB design into the next level is knowing about production.

Knowing about you know things like that. Anyone can lay out a board right but you know to do to know about getting boards manufactured and tested and things like that with the utmost efficiency. That's where the value-add comes in for a professional. PCB Designer: Oh Potato Potato: You're a 16 year old.

Really? Is there a night? No. I Don't think there's an age limit. The old happily take your money. It's it's It's not cheap.

It's not cheap. It's like a like. it's a multi-day course. It's a professional multi-day course.

It's not gonna be cheap. Yeah, at sixteen? Okay, yeah, all right. well that's a different. That's a different thing you.

You wouldn't do it at sixteen. probably unless you find someone to pay for it for you. Oh, you did. Thank you.

Be up, Stick. You're the one who sent me the files. Thank you Of course you know, right? I Don't Inches: What's a D Millimeters. Let's go over here.

This will be the final thing for the day. Mmm. Dimensions aren't a what was it? Nine Point Two Five Six Point Two Five Note: Nine Point Two Five by six point Two Five Four layers. Quantity: Just need one least expensive color.

Yeah, this is go least expensive color. What can we get this for? Silkscreen just on the top I Don't need bottom cheapest finish. Yeah, give me a cheapest ask finish possible. No that gold flash.

Rubbish Board thickness. Yep. Standard board thickness to mill. Oh really.

you can't even go above like you kind of got a two point four or anything. you can't do any thick itty doodad boards. Shame. One ounce copper, six mill trace, and space I think we're ten mill lower.

We're tenth hour or something, but I'll just leave it by default. Whatever. like eight. I Don't know I Don't know what the design rule thing in this one was.

minimum drill size. No one does drill sizing. Mmm. inches.

rubbish anyway. I Just leave it by default. Gold Fingers: No, we don't have any gold fingers. Number of designs separated only by silkscreen quality certifications.

No, we don't want any of that rubbish. My Quality Certified: China versus Taiwan PCBs ding-ding-ding Find it out. Yeah, yeah, no, we don't need a stencil don't nest and some of them went through whole design ship to Australia Board arrives in default time. Get prices? Here we go.

Yeah yeah, that's what the cheapest ass finish. I Don't care if it's LED or not they're then they're not gonna give you a Led by default. You're gonna give you lead-free PCB way. Some of these are spammers.

in fact, probably most of them at some stage I should know I know and spit some of them PCB way of spammed Jlc PCB I think they've spammed as well or PCB yeah, no doubt I think yeah. They've all tried to span the forum make sock sock puppet account so don't know what it is with PCB Chinese PCB Suppliers they're like I don't know. They're just obsessed with making sock puppet accounts. Thank you Dark Matter Okay Ozzie box here we go China Post 45 days 234 bucks Whoa.

that's Jlc PCB This is what I found last time the cheapest prize. Oh it's an advertisement for PCB Way Okay, sorry yeah PCB way have paid to get right up the top of the list. Yep so the tab but otherwise that they're sorted in price. Yeah, look look at this.

Yep, yeah, so it's anywhere up to leave this 700 bucks advanced PCBs in the US but they're good, they're gonna do a good job and they're gonna turned around quick. Breadboard killer in Australia 600 bucks cuz they're there. They're good for like little boards. little tiny that's their thing.

but this is a big board. See people think PCBs are cheap and well they are compared to when I was a boy. but you know because people make when does little Bloody Arduino II things These days this is a decent sized board. Alright, this is a real PCB Alright, so like even even dirty PCBs People think they're the cheapest on the planet right? This ain't like a lot of dirty piece of beef and boys, for example, fashioned them.

You know you hear a lot all your dirty. PCBs Get a PCB for a dollar. you know he's practically free or whatever. You 388 bucks right? Because they're their whole process is set up to manufacture to their entire business model.

relies on the fact that they can fit 50 different designs on their one panel this big you know, once called a panel this big and they yeah and new in you come along smart ass. Along with your big-ass piece of mail like this, it takes up most of the panel and they're gonna go screw you. You know it's going to cost money so but check this out. I mean this is insanely cheap.

Jlc PCB easier EDA they have. they're the ones who have that online easy EDA thing. but they also have a piece of me. Service: I don't know if they do it themselves I like them I don't.

Well, t