Dave replies to a youtube comment that you can't learn much practical design stuff from vintage teardown videos.
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Hi, it's rant time and this was prompted by a YouTube comment on my previous video for this fluke resistance calibrator from a viewer called Claudio D and he mentioned that well, he doesn't really care for these vintage tear Downs 30-year-old bit of instrument in this case and well, okay, fair enough, not a problem. But then he went on to make the comment based on my comment that I said the specs of this vintage bit of gear could be replaced with a $20 resistor in a box and well, yeah, technically that's true in that one of the ranges, the spec for one range on this or for the ranges can be replaced by a modern $20 resistor. but that misses the entire point of this product. There's so much Automation and compensation and uh, calibration which goes into a tweaking a box like this for performance over time and all the automative functionality that you can't possibly get by just shoving some resistance in a box.
But anyway, that's not what I wanted to rant about. The true rant is about His next comment, which was that with these vintage tear Downs in this case 30 years old, there you know more for just entertainment value. you can't learn anything practical from them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
What happens if you wanted to redesign uh to duplicate this product today, which you may want to do for some precision resistance calibration? uh, you know, exotic application in some industrial environment or something, It could very well be the case. How would you design it? Would you just put some resistors $20 resistors in a box? No. The design would be exactly the same as what Fluke did 30 years ago. For this product, you would have to use all the same tricks that they used, all the design stuff, all the compensation, all the thought that went into this.
It's exactly the same. The only thing that would change. instead of using the Uh custom Fluke made Precision resistors, you just order them from Digi key for 20 bucks each. But apart from that, everything else would remain the same.
The digital stuff in here might be replaced with one microcontroller, but this analog board would be absolutely no difference. 30 years later, all the way through each of the design steps. Right from the low range resistors down here, you'd still have to do the full terminal compensation. you'd probably have to handwind uh, those, instead of buying them off the shelf, perhaps to get the performance.
Then for the lower range uh, reference resistors, you'd still have to use the top quality Uh relays in there with the multiple relay trick to try and multiple contacts in there in parallel to try and get all of your uh, long-term errors and your contact resistance down to an acceptable margin inside your uh, the spec you're after. And then of course, at the high end, you would still have to use the special read relays in there with the ultra high Uh insulation resistance on them to um, ensure. otherwise it's just going to screw up your whole thing and then on top of that, you would still have to use right at the output There, you'd still have to use the Teflon standoffs and the other tricks which they used in there to do that. And once again, the special relays on top of the special relays to do the switching in there and then right at the final output. You'd still have to use a special tum copper contact And that's a whole design aspect of this thing which would not change a bit, not one iota 30 years later. Yes, this may be a vintage design, but the design rules are not vintage. It's still as valid as they ever were. So watch these vintage tear Downs you might just learn something.
Wouldn't it have also been the same ever since they stopped using vacuum tubes(if they did)? I took apart a bench power supply from the 60s and the only thing that was different from today was it having analogue controls and vu meters.
watching this in 2020, and yes high spec. product the teardown makes sense,. However, not in case of middle segment and low-end consumer products.
BTW in classic physics won't change in 30 years, but materials will. So maybe you will design around LDPE instead of Teflon or something like that. Or maybe Alumine substrates will be cheaper in future or something else…
That Claudio character is a naive dumbass who doesn't want to learn, don't mind him Dave…
How can you possibly know where you are going if you don't know where you came from?
I'm sure that he could calibrate everything with his resistor in a box and repair anything with his DIY eBay oscilloscope and signal generator…. He's so talented that he don't need no stinking fluke 30 year old rubbish…. But I bet that he loves that amazing vacuum tube sound from his amplifier.
Some people cannot grasp the concept that the latest is not always the greatest and that new ideas in design are not always leaps in bounds ahead of the predecessor, often times the reverse. I hear it all the time from the wife; "that's old, we need a new this or that." Ok so we go buy the new and look: Made in China. Not 50% as reliable as what it replaced.
I often have people say just use a stamp board I made a a simple timer to using 555 timer chips , I live 555s they can do most things this has 3 chips 2 555 and a5 volt reg chip parts count is 3 active components verses the stamp that has 50 plus, the MTF ( mean time between failure) is set by the component and multiplied by the amount of components,and yes the performance is Much better , so watt ! This timer is used in a hydroponic system so a micro second makes no difference but it fails more often, needs more power plus a Lipton to program it ! This is not progress I am old so when I first started electronics they were only tubes !! And components have dramatically improved but physics has not changed m, electrons do the same they always have and will stay the same so using au
Micro pros-sever is not better just easier but knowing what happens in the chip is what really maters , I love electronics and I am glad that I can understand how they work inside ! This is what it’s all about !
This video is almost vintage already, but I just have to comment here.
I'm quite interested in vintage electronics, all the way back to tube gear out of the 1920s. If you look at the design, you often tend to think "what the f*** is that" .. but most of the time, you start to see the valid reasons behind it. An example are the so called "Reflex" circuits: For many years, active elements were really expensive. There was even a time when there was a sales tax which was determined per tube in some parts of the world .. so they actually used the same element multiple times. So, the first tube was used as an RF preamp, then as an NF driver. Sometimes it was also used in the control circuit for the tuning indicator. Even in (even when it was new) really crappy circuits, where the main design criteria was "make it as cheap as possible, and after that cut the price in half again", you tend to see quite clever solutions to archive that.
Being granted, that's really not needed anymore, transistors got dirt cheap by now and using one or less more isn't a problem and in most cases you would use an LSI building block or even complete chipset anyway (which will often contain millions-billions of transistors).
But .. if you really want to UNDERSTAND electronics .. I would actually suggest looking at stuff from the mid 70ies to lets say early 90ies .. just the time where most of Dave's vintage teardowns are coming from. The circuits are actually quite complex already and contain many nice engineering solutions which are still valid today, but there are:
1) Mostly discrete and not hidden away an a black wonder box from Linear or Analog or TI or what else.
2) (Especially in measuring equipment) Very well documented. In manuals of the time, they didn't only give you the full schematics, but also there is most likely a large "Theory of Operation" chapter where they actually EXPLAIN the circuit to you in detail.
Those people in general may have been limited by the technological constraints of their time, but they did really know what they were doing. There may be some new techniques now, old analog circuits are replaced by digital signal processing in many areas .. but .. even if you do that, you still have to design an analog frontend just like back then.
Also, there are very good building blocks available today which you can just stick together to get a product of quite high quality, and in a commercial setting you would be really stupid not to use them if they are available at reasonable cost. But .. do you really understand electronics by doing that .. I don't think so. You are just using readily made products and let other people do the design. And inside those wonder boxes .. there is mostly the same stuff which was on the pizza carton sized boards back then.
I like the older gear because it's knowable.
Old nail gear.
Here's the input circuit, here's the attenuator system, here's the comparator circuit, here's the mixer etc etc.
New ass gear.
Here's the ASIC, well we're done. Bye
I much prefer these vintage tear downs actually!
The message in the video is so very true. The designers of 50 years ago – in my opinion – were more often than not better engineers than today's crop – and the simple reason was that they had to be. Before 1990, Electronics was a horrible and intimidating profession. In the past I have worked inside some beautiful old test equipment form the 70's – the level of analogue knowledge, mechanical design and materials skills is impressive. I once repaired a vintage 60's-70's (but still incredibly useful) B&K Pico-scale inductance meter – which was crafted from beautiful materials, used every trick in the book to maintain accuracy – and was actually packed internally with sawdust to keep the stray capacitances constant. We should never forget that until the early 90's the majority of designers worked without any mcad and ecad and that an analogue design often meant designing 20 or so discrete transistors using only spec-sheet graphs plus a pocket calculator – my boss in 1981 still used a slide-rule – "because it was quicker" btw. Spec sheets were in dusty folders on lab shelves. There was very little simulation capability – and what existed was less than user-friendly, extremely slow and could only accommodate a few nodes at a time. With minimal ic functionality and very little integrated functionality on Silicon, designers needed to do a ton of sleight of hand to get to the outputs they required. If you take the time to look inside a 1950's television set and really understand what the designers did you will never stop slapping your forehead in surprise at the inspired genius of almost every component layout. For fit and cost reasons a block of digital functionality – which today we drop into our environment as a few lines of code and configure with a click
was more often than not laboriously crafted one gate at a time from discrete digital components, each with their own timing and power issues. IDEs, if they existed, were not available to most companies for cost reasons – machine code or HEX being the usual route to program and then debugging tools could cost more than a car. The amount of thought, stress, risk and brilliant inspiration required to do what had to be done back then was mind-bendingly difficult. In short, the profession – from my point of view at leastsucked. I loved the end results, I hated the process – most of all the arrival of prototypes. More than anything else, in the 70's and 80's I stood in awe of the people that trained me. There were far fewer EEs in the 70's, and most I came across were significantly more skilled than I am today – with all my software and tools. Today in contrast things are far more fun, quicker, lower in cost and overall it is so much easier to accomplish what we want to do. One of the problems in todays design world is that producing a product that only marginally works is somewhat easier than it was 40 years ago. Because today we can jump from an input to an output so very rapidly, we often neglect some of those hard-learned engineering 101's that our predecessors needed to live by… needed to live by because the tools they had to play with at the time – at best – were only just capable of doing what they required. Today with our excellent low-cost highly integrated application-specific Silicon, ESD-accommodated silicon front-ends, noise floors falling away, power consumption falling away and high speed readily available we can get away with bending the rules more than they could in the past. Sometimes today that leads to us creating marginal designs from black boxes with internal workings we cannot see and systems that susceptible to faults that are difficult to locate and understand. The design rules in 1961 are the same as the rules today – we can all learn from looking at old schematics and PCBs – and a good first lesson would be how very lucky we are to have today's tools and systems available to us. Don't even get me started on placing a micro where three discrete components could have done the job at a better price and just as well. Don't get me started on adding shielding where good analogue design knowledge would have made a circuit bullet-proof. Today we do more, we think larger – our designs have greater scope and accomplish greater things, but those designs regularly rest on a thinner and more unstable foundation. A client recently asked me to make a 20 microsecond timer (in a hurry) for a BOM cost of pennies. I had forgotten how to wire a quick 555 timer sometime in the late 90's – and my quickest route that day was a 40 cent micro. Doing that in 1980 would have got me yelled at for days and days – and why – because doing so lacks thought. The devil is in the details.mabe he thinks nowadays you just wave a magic wand over the equipment that you want to fix or test and it will be fixed. Technology hasnt advanced beyond 30 year old equipment in the fact is like you said, yes there are upgrades that can be made to improve it, but when it comes right down to it, the values needed to fix things havent changed. Its kind of like saying an old bicycle isnt worth riding any more because its 30 years old. Yes, the technology has changed but its still just a bicycle. There are companys out there that search for old equipment to study so they can learn from it. Yes they upgrade it and mabe make it better, but its still valuable. It makes me sick seeing how we live in a throw away society now days. How are we ever going to learn how to redesign new things if we just throw the old stuff away.
I appreciate your vintage tear downs, They're true works of art and its impressive to see the way engineers solved problems in a time before you could simply adjust your firmware. There is always something more that you can learn to add to your skill set, and to just dismiss something's merits because its 30 years old is nothing short of ignorant.
Dear Dave could you please do a teardown of a Baghdad battery, I think it would show those whippersnappers where their butter belongs.
rekt
I was in dave's video!
I hate to say it, Joe Blow your biggest audience will do just fine with a resistance box. None of this resistance calibrator rubbish.
I actually enjoy vintage teardowns more than modern ones because of the scale of the circuits. It's easier to see how a circuit works when everything is it's own part, rather than all integrated into one chip. That and physically the parts were much bigger, which make watching more enjoyable. Whoever made that post is really not that smart. Sure things have become smaller and more integrated, but the theory behind it all is basically the same and can be applied the same today.
vintage is where it's at for me,nothing like finding goldmines of quality reusable parts for my magic smoke inventions lol.
You are absolutely right Dave!!!
I agree.
The laws of physics have not changed, engineering principals have not changed,
Looking at older designs gives us an insight into how problems were solved with the available technology at the time. These solutions can be transfered into today's technology. In today's world we barely get a chance to have a scatch let alone pour hours into planning and design like people did years ago.
If you don't understand the solution then you definitely don't understand the problem.
It is called standing on the shoulders of giants 🙂
Not to mention, when you tear apart the old stuff, the parts are actually big enough to point at on camera, but with the newer stuff you might as well just talk about it, because you're not going to see much without a microscope 😉
I've always seen vintage gear as more educational than modern stuff from the start. I learned about sound synthesis from an analog synth with knobs and switches for every function. I don't feel I would have come to that knowledge as fast as I did if I was to try and learn on a digital device with menus and digital value based controls. Same with modern ICs vs discrete components. Vintage designs relied on discrete components more cause the IC's didn't really exist back then. Seeing all the actual constituents of circuit is far more revealing then just having an IC do all the magic behind a curtain.
Totally agree, with you Dave, also I love vintage equipment teardown, new stuff just isn't that as fun !
One could possibly learn to design a product that would still work after 30 years. It is amazing what is considered acceptable in a new product these days.