So innovation versus standard patents. Now we could ask Alex down here for help. but I've got one better. I've got a real-life patent attorney? It's Phil One knows Phil Tell us Phil The difference between Innovation patents and regular patterns.

How long's a piece of string? Dave Alright, so in Innovation patent is a lesser form of pattern. so it's a the lower standard of invention required to get the patent granted. So is it any invention. It's not an invention innovation.

So the step that you have to pass to the Patent Office if you get it examined is an innovative step, not an inventive step. But you don't have to examine. you do not have to get it examined its whole entire lifetime. There is not.

the only reason you would do that is if you actually wanted to in enforce it against and infringe our so what's the point having it if you don't ever get it examined so it's enforceable. Well, the reason is reason that you get them is that so you have them available if infringe, it does come along at a later point in time. Oh so if somebody comes along and you want to or somebody copies your product and you want to assume nothing then you go get it examined. That's when you.

That's when you look at your your your document your description and you go I can make claims out in my description that cover this person's product right. It's trying to copy my end of my idea. And then you get off to the Patent Office Again, examine with those claims that are directly targeted to your infringe rather than so you tailing it at the time that it's relevant rather than speculating at the start as to what's going to be important. Is it cheaper? It is cheaper together? Granted, because yeah, you don't have to go through that examination process I Think once you get into a stage where you are examining it, it's probably on par with a standard patent.

but as you don't have to go that cost, it's a completely optional. How much does the examination cost versus just get in the innovation pattern to be a so the innovation pattern. If you just fall without a patent attorney which is not recommended, you can because then Philippi out of the business. If you write your own waffle.

Well, that's the thing. that's that waffle that you gotta rely on, there's gonna be what you need to tailor you in your pattern in the first place. If you just wanted to file it yourself, it's if you're on the back to the Patent Office if you file a description. If you get a patent attorney to do it, they'll write the description.

so it's gonna cost about no. no, it's gonna be a bit cheaper than a standard, but not much difference, right? I Actually follow properly, but then you don't have the examination costs unless you need it and it'll be it's bit. It'd be a bit cheaper to go through the examination cost. what if you needed it and the examiner? but the examination takes a long time, doesn't it like six months plus? Does the examine or is it shorter for this compared to a regular on? It's probably it's shorter, but it depends a lot on how how diligent you are and getting back to the examiner.

So if you get a examination report and you get back to them straight away, they're good. They're gonna get back to you again pretty quickly so it can be done within a month if you push it. Oh wow, okay, we're a bit a regular pattern. Taste can take years depending on Alexa T Yeah, well, why does it take different lengths of time for different patterns when in? Australia When you get an examination report that sets a clock? so it's actually you have one year to then overcome all the examiners problems from the timing that you request the examination to get that first report.

that takes a long time. mainly because of patent office backlogs that only got a few hundred patent patent examiner's and they're examining how many you just in Australia Just a strain, right? Just the US have an equivalent to an innovation? No, no, no in any other country. or it's just an Aussie fisheye. Another has one and they call it a utility model mum versus an invention model in China.

That's a bit different from any of us and you can you know how to pattern the method in Chinese Oh Like a manufacturing method yet only patent a product stray You can have method you can have prayer you can have if any, any any of this normal claims you'd have interest an apartment. If you get an innovation patent here in Australia, it's only valid in Australia And what but what if you want worldwide protection do ya? Does that force you into a real, a real patent Or like a full patent or dessert? Or can you get an innovation pattern in Australia and then a full pattern elsewhere in the world, you can file an innovation patent in Australia. First up, and you've got 12 months. Then you can make it a season.

If you want international patents right and that will have to be the standard normal patterns you would get internationally. So that probably the cheapest way into a pattern is to get an innovation pattern and and don't get it examined. And then you have 12 months to decide to build your business up and decide if it's going to be worthwhile getting worldwide coverage. That's that's one way.

That's not the way we'd normally recommend it because once once you've filed your innovation some of the standard you can't change it. After that 12-month period, it can't. You can't change the description. Oh, you can't change the description, but you can add different countries later.

Yeah, within within that What? Matt's right. What we normally do is we follow provisional application, so use the same same process in it. Start with your right, your description and get a parity to help you with the description. Mm-hmm You get 12 months into the 12 months.

You can then decide whether you want utility models overseas, you want the innovation patent or stand in Australia or you want any other overseas international patents. right? At that 12 month point, you can change the description. got it within within the same and that of the invention. Is there any limits to what parts of the description? You can change or can change the entire thing.

If you wanted to, you've got it. You've got to be within the same idea? Yeah, you can add improvements. You can add different different ways of achieving the result that you started with. You can't bring in brand new ideas.

So roughly how much does it cost for a pattern these days? in Australia How long is it Length The stream. Does it vary based on how much you obviously your time, you charge the time it takes to write the education. So nomnom aware we would give a quote on writing the application based on the technology. What it feels like a some simple little one or two-page job' like what would be the absolute cheapest chips you can get done wouldn't be in a while to a Punjabi right? Probably you'd be probably 15 20 page.

Joey. You've probably get away with it for under five, maybe four, or five grand, four or five simple mechanical type inventions. if the mechanical ones are easier because Betty just working off, it's the the. the drawings.

yeah, just writing out what you see right things you direct between each other. When you're dealing with things like computer software or hardware, there's a lot more involved to it. There's different regulations worldwide at different countries, so you got to basically account for the systems in each in each country. So in case you do want to go eight internationally, your pattern is set up correctly to do it.

At that point, a software patterns still a theme. Software patents lasted, leave behind, so haven't they? They are made making it difficult now more difficult to get then they used to be in Australia I here and in the US and definitely in Australia and Us. Probably still a little bit more easier than Australia but they're still trying to track crackdown on software patents in the US as well. How do they crack down? Does it have to be so innovative that so inventive that it's you know it's like wow, no one's ever thought of that or does it? you know? no.

Mohsen seem to be a little incremental. Things from the patent trolls and what not true. It depends territory here. a lot.

A lot of the patent examination ports we get back from software type of invention sees your patent is not patentable subject matter so they say you're just a business method. You're just a scheme. Your idea can patent an idea or Orem yeah business scheme. So you've got a you've got to really show some real physical effects or utility.

So exact examines have a little bit a list of about twenty different things they look at and the more you get into that lists the closer you get to being able to be a patentable invention right? The more things you take off is that is that a silver at least? Or do you know what it is The list is on the pattern when I came off the website you can find its animation manual but that's where your value comes in. You can tell somebody that know your well. yeah you have to do this. This this in this and you move you're likely to pose.

We never work in absolutes or positive. Well, I'm not in charge of a generation and it's gonna change in couple years. Anyway, there's no case coming up this year that may or may not change the system entirely Again, this innovation pattern thing is going to change right? All they have they already faced it out of using the innovation pattern is it'll exist. You still can get them.

They are trying to phase it out. There was a push by the the industry to keep them and it was temporarily delayed. The The: the death of the innovation pattern was temporarily delayed. but it's been brought back into the latest proposal.

It's just proposed. It's not, has it hasn't come in, the front, hasn't come into force. Why do we know the exact reason why they're trying to do that? Not really, Not really. And because there weathers in charge of the IP Australia There may have made a call that it's either not economical from a benefit to the society stance.

It's obviously beneficial to the small. It's a midnight engineer. Highly beneficial to the small small inventor. Yeah, all the incremental ideas that you have when you're developing products, Sometimes it's not enough of a step to get a full patent.

It's not a full, completely inventive step, but you've made innovation. It has a substantial improvement to the way it works. It's new, and you need to be able to get yeah, protection for those sort of innovations. And the difference is.

correct me if I'm wrong. but a full invention patent has to be non obvious to somebody in the trade. You know it hasn't been done before if it's on if engineers like a scope. Oh, that's obvious.

Yeah, yeah. that's the basic premise of the inventive step, right? We don't use obvious this formally in Australia Though Us: okay, have novelty and obviousness, we have novelty and inventive step. And inventive step is basically obvious. This: if it's like life, like you looking a circuit and say, well, there's not really another way you could do that right before that forgiving that problem and you you're trying to try and solve that problem, that's the obvious solution You: you're not really gonna get a patent for that.

Okay, or in theory you shouldn't. It doesn't mean they're not going to grant it because the the problem is, isn't it that the that the examiners aren't Well, they're expert like you're a laser. You're a PhD laser physicist, right? So you do do your expertise in laser physics. So that was why the firm hired you For then they just sell your expertise to specific minds.

Yeah, right. But you can't expect the examiners to be to know all the history of engineering and no, uh, that was published in the 1970s in X Magazine Everyone knows that you know problem would come up, come up against that. The examiner has it has a sense that something's not inventive or be obvious, but it doesn't really have the background knowledge that left full engineer complete. and it's been around since the seventies or eighties would know.

So so you tell me it's the vibe. Sometimes we get objections that are basically that Oh okay. they won't say that in as many words. but though, will they typically reject it outright? Or will they come back and say no? You don't have a chance in hell opportunity to respond.

So you get a really get a report. Examiner says I don't think I think maybe it's new, maybe I can't find anything that says it's not novel. yeah but I don't think it's inventive because the X why is it reason right? this has been around person would come to this conclusion. Well whatever words they use though, they've got some form paragraphs that they use a lot and then you always get an opportunity to respond to that with with evidence or or account or changing your table or changing claims.

But an innovation pattern is different. It doesn't require that inventive step. it can be just a and even an obvious thing as long as nobody's done it before. right? There is novelty.

That's the same thing, right? Test for novelty for new. All okay right. and a patent. But the the next step.

Novelty. Define novelty. That's just it hasn't been done as it hasn't been done before that they know there's enough. But I would you? Just because the exam hasn't found it doesn't mean it's not on some website willing novel.

Yeah, you know what, You always gotta be subject to review if you guys goes to court. Down the track, someone's gonna do a proper pattern search. yep or or more data patent search. Yeah and then they find something that would kill the novelty but you can only work one on what you've got at the time.

of course. Imagine what happens when you go to defend your patent which cost millions by the way, you can't get away with defending a pattern like and winning a case under seven figures, right? You're pretty much looking up. Yeah, five hundred plus if you want to actually defend it all the way to winning the case as opposed to just sending a cease and desist. If you start with a cease and desist, the first thing they're gonna do, it's gonna do a novelty search.

They're gonna find some prior art that the examiner didn't find and they got a retry. They're gonna launch a counter motion to basically revoke your patent and say no, it's not new or it's not inventive. And so you're basically fighting two different arms. So you're what you're fighting an infringement case.

Yeah, Does their product infringe or claims? Yeah. And you're also finding the the counter motion, which is is my patent. They might find. How easy is it to prove that a patent is not valid? Is it? And can you just like, literally take a magazine from the 1970s Circuit was published in the 1970s? That's it.

End of story, Case Closed. Is it that It's very rarely that easy, right? It's on the quality of your lawyers, right? If you said, if you did happen to find somewhere published in a journal article in Russia that is the exact same circuit that's been writing granted as a pattern somewhere, then pretty much you're not going to be novel, right? So case closed? Okay, but it still could drag on for years. If you've got really good expensive lawyers, you're not a litigation granting of the terms. prosecution I prosecute patents from Oh, they're not not prosecuting in Bingley Encouragements is the same companies do you both EMS or deserves Oh, you know most patent what? Pretty much all patent furs.

We'll have patent attorneys who are scientists that have done a master's in law right. You need to. it's probably law. And so they patent attorneys, trademark attorneys.

and then they'll have a litigation or legal arm that helps with commercial agreements, assignments, transfers of ownership, whatever sort of. And then that will save a little litigation arm which which deals with infringement and defense on right. You know various standards so innovation may go away. you're in Australia In Iceland may go away.

Mmm. we might find out more information in the next 3-4 months. What happens? But if you net one now, you've you've got it. Yeah, if you if you file one now, it's not gonna die.

There are the only us there anyway. Stop the filing of new innovation patents. The people that have already got innovation patents now Ben Okay, not gonna wipe them clean. he's still going to exist this so they had the same rights as what you blow up today.

Yeah, it's just that if it comes to pass that in regiments are killed by the by the powers that be then I'll stop the stop accepting them as new filings. So the easiest way to get a patent is to get a provisional upfront to get a patent attorney to write the pattern. You obviously don't recommend writing your own patent because then you're you're out of a job. And it's not that.

No, it's not. It's not that there. Of course there is some element that I'll be out of a job if everyone was doing their own writing pens. But if you look at the statistics of the people that write their own patents may be less than 0.1 of a percent actually ever get granted? Oh really.

so it's not even a matter of defense. You're not only getting a pass the baton examiner is that because the patent examiner will have a low opinion? If it's because they can obviously see that it hasn't come through a won't judge you differently whether you've had a patent turning grant and write patent or not, right? it's a matter of what you can do once the examiner finds prior art that that he thinks is relevant. Okay, so and then he'll argue your case for that. So yeah, you can only rely on what's in that what's in the description of your patent application during the examination phase.

If your if your description is short, it's not completed. it's sort of very brief. you don't have, you don't have anything to fall back on, so you've got to really consider all the options upfront and put them. Put them all into your document in your provisional mm-hmm And you say you can't get away with like less than like 20 pages? It just has to be filled with woful.

I'll admit to that, but feels Jobbies cut and paste? That's $500 an hour? Please cut Maybe for five pages worth? Actual actual description of your invention, sir. And why? Why do they have to take a perfectly understandable diagram and turn it into the hand-drawn Why is it all? And they're all still hand-drawn Right hand-drawn Weirdy. Or you got it. pretend you got a program to do.

I Do you have special patent drawing tools? I don't exist? There's Autodesk Inventor Oh, okay, right. But also, it's about being being reproducible. So if you've got round graphs or grayscale images and things that show you invention really, really nicely, you can't put them in a patent because once you start further copying that a couple times, things still within DD Stewie Use faxes. We have to be able to receive them.

It would be mostly. Japanese I Think are still using fax machines for respondents mostly. but things done by email these days, right? I Mean my major can be anywhere in the world I Can still communicate with them. It's you do.

obfusco obfuscate though. Do a certain extent, not intentionally. It's not. It's not that it's clarity.

You've gotta be. You gotta be absolutely clear on what your scribing am. So that's why you have a lot of numerals and lines that we're crossing. the Year Nice drawing.

Yeah, but you've got it. and everything's numbered. Yeah, you've gotta enumerate every every single feature of your diagram. Yeah, and that number has to appear in the description.

And each paragraph is numbered right. It usually what? Kind of Sort of Yeah, The US has a system or a four-digit number in it, basically for referencing, right? Yeah, In paragraph 322, Yeah, line Line Seven, right on line 38, right? Age 49? You know it says this. So therefore, you know this is my basis for changing the claim. Yeah, and there's an innocent way invented feature.

The the best thing I can suggest you do is at least talk to a patent attorney, right? But they won't talk to you for free though mostly most will. Most most most will give you a half hour right five minutes for a free. If you can have a chat with the patent area, they all go through through the system with you. You know it'll go through the requirements that you need to go on with your patent application and how it works and usually what would give out for free.

How many tire kickers deer get coming in? Big event like over, but you're at a reasonably large ish firm? Yeah. I'm Brian I've never really had a lot of Thai diggers. You know you don't really get got no money and they don't want to send. They don't realize it cost 5 10 grand easily depends where you get your leads from.

Basically it but my people walking off the street. you don't give them any of those, but they're gonna be the ones that's probably down under and understand the cost involved. Young Love which is tens of thousands of em. Yeah, if you gotta go properly, it's gonna be tens of thousands of dollars.

Yep, as you're doing this nationally, you gotta. the other thing You know. three, Four hundred right to get everything through to granted patents. What can't you patent there? You still can't patent free energy, right? Is that there is that banned in Australia I Know it's found in the US Isn't it anything to do with perpetual motion overunity? Give we get your patent has to be useful.

so that's the technology we use to say a perpetual motion machine is not useful? Yeah, okay. can't argue that it will be. it will be if it works. and I guarantee you it works because I build it in my basement I'm sure I've measured it right.

request the demonstration not that I've ever had, but there I thought that was specifically banned in the U.s. like overunity. It's like is it's there's probably I don't think it's actually in the legislation are I It's just right. You can't.

You can't patent something that's not useful. Okay, and you can't patent an abstract idea. You can't patent it in theory. In theory.

If somebody did develop an overunity machine, they gave more power out than power in. And I'm not talking about air conditions. I think I've proved it to panic them out with accepted physics, right? I'm They may get it accepted. Physics is the key thing, you know? Yeah, now, could you patent new physics? Let's say you're a physicist like you're one of the world's leading physicists and you've invented something new? You could they have the you can't patent and question you can't patent, right? Nature? Okay, you can.

You can patent a notification of that. Oh yeah, well. you can't patent. Einsteins E equals Mc-squared That's yep.

that's a law of nature. You can't patent that. That's quite a good head, too. This will put the Einsteins on the map.

The boy's father doesn't matter to come up with it. I Discovered the formula the splitting beer atoms and we've got the register. This at the height of us, but you can patent an atomic bomb there that uses that equation as it's got a little basis. You can patent GPS technology.

You can patent all applications of the theory, but not the theory itself, right? So splitting, physically splitting the atom, you could pattern that, the process of the process of doing that. Yeah, right. But the physics behind it You can't So that's that's the same here in Australia But know it like do you get it, It's pretty common worldwide. They are those standards are pretty common.

Have you ever gotten somebody like that who's like you go? Dude, this is seriously like this breaks the laws of physics I Lost you I think I had a run of about four or five in a row really and I in each case I Just said give me a demonstration. Can he video show me how it works? Yep, no. Give me some, give me some equations proved to me first. Yeah.

Otherwise you have a lot of problems. Have they shown you video? Because usually you'll get the YouTube videos you know like oh, look this, it's got magnets and it spins on its own Yeah I tried try I try and be nice to my they can envelope by then and and try and help them through the process of yeah, getting here, getting a reasonable idea there, right present to examine. Otherwise you don't have a lot of problems and you're gonna spend a lot of money trying trying to get your pattern through the examination process and the examiners will ask for a physical demo real way sometimes. I Have heard of that happening in the US a long time ago I Don't know, it doesn't happen.

No not in recent times not like I Have had Patna Clippers come back and say your your claims you know defy the laws of no in physics right? Yeah, got through the patent attorney so sanity checks the case. It was a U.s. originating case right like that that filed the US patent application and they fall in Australia exam and I came back to Australia Said like you, you know you know you're not using accepted physics and then he came back and gave a hundred page derivation of his new physics which was which was diligently filed at the Patent Office and they all diligently charge you the examining fee I presume. Just so the examining fee changes based on how much effort they put in.

No, it's fixed. No, it's the fixed fixed fee upfront. So even if you come back with that hundred-page derivation and you give it back to the examiner, the poor examiner's got to read it. gotta read it.

or I have heard of cases where he's gone, it's too hard. Fine. Have your patent granted, Try, try enforcing. It's up to you.

Okay, Wonderful. So it's is that a thing. Just bamboozled them with enough stuff and they'll just it's got to be legit rubber-stamp I wouldn't suggest that and I don't think it'll work work these days, right? Have you ever gotten too much information? Then you've got to prune it down too much stuff Or is that rarity? Let that's failure in most most the time I'm working on the short parasocial. Anyways, all I'll work with what I've been given from overseas phone associates, foreign patent attorneys.

Will you literally get the back of the napkin, sketch up and go look. What we did at lunchtime is that the Holy Grail someone turns up the napkin and Jesus is really good? Yeah, we can do I can make a 30-page Could somebody just come to you with a simple diagram and go look I don't know how to write food for Jack Can you do this? Understand the invention and to get it down in words? Yep and charge them and charge them 500 bucks an hour or whatever. The going rate is something like that. Yeah, all right.

thank you very much feel let's go to the problem. Hope that's a frame rate to be completely bad. You'll do all. Yeah.

Awesome thanks Phil Catch you next time.