Hi time for another Evie blab haven't done one for awhile and I thought I'd take a question a beginner question from the Evie blog forum and answer it because I think this one actually has you know, wide-ranging relevance to people. So let's have a look at it. this one comes from Brendan V Who's a newbie on the eve eve of forum welcome or what newbies on there Hi I Was hoping for some advice from those in the know. basically I have a design and some documentation on an industrial product I would like to develop for a niche application.

Whilst I love to play around with electronics as a hobby, designing a robust, safe, and quality product is beyond me. I am also limited in the capital investment I can put into the product I'm stuck in the sense that I have a clear vision and design for the product but cannot afford to just take that to a design firm and say here you go due to the huge investment required. Any tips from any ears out there about other ways to bring my design to reality is freelance and option. Is there a way I can document my designer, send it to a company to tender on and he's going to keep the design secret? Fair enough.

All right. so that's an interesting question and one I've gotten many times over the years, way before the blog, even back when I published my designs in the electronics magazines that have my mailing address in there, my snail mail address, and people who write me letters I've got this brilliant idea and you know, can you help me with it or you know, give me ideas. How can I bring this to market and so it's You know it's an age-old question. it's made easier these days by modern do-it-yourself technologies and manufacturing low-cost manufacturing technologies and things like that.

but it's still a very interesting question. So first of all, although it does not apply, maybe doesn't apply here. But I Got to say it anyway, because it applies in general is that make sure your idea is original if it's not original, at least that it has some you know worth aspects to it that make it. You know a viable that solves the problem for a particular customer.

and because many times you know the I'm an ideas person I've got this wonderful idea and they email me and say you know they tell me all about their idea and two seconds of googling just you know, sorry it's already been done. All this because the blah blah blah blah blah and because you know, hey, they haven't even bothered or they don't know the right industry terms to search for or something like that. So just make sure it's viable and a good first step in this. We actually just talked about this on the Amp hour the other day see my way, that's towards the right at the end I Think it was the latest episode of the Air Power where we talked about Canvas in your Customers Candice and canvas in them and asking for their what do you need that it can this solve your problem or what are your problems and you know I mean Brendon says further on down below we'll take a look at is worked in there for in the industry for 20 years etcetera.

So I'm let's just assume he's done that but that's an important step to find out if your customer is going to buy this thing, what is it going to solve their problem, etc. Anyway, let's get on to this. um how to do this. There's probably two main ways you can do this.

You can either do it on the cheap or you can which includes do it yourself and you know basically you manage everything or you go the professional way and you follow the NBA playbook and you for start a business, you form your proprietary or incorporated company and you do your detailed business plan. Wenk Wenk Wenk and you go get a business loan and the banks think oh this is the best idea ever your business, your business plan is so professional yeah will loan you the money. Here's all the money. Go out and do it and then you go and subcontractor design house, a design bureau or whatever to do the complete design.

They will fleece you for every last cent possible and if you really really really lucky, you might come out of it with a successful product unscathed and not bankrupt. But that's the second one. So I don't recommend doing that following the MBA playbook. I Recommend doing it on the cheap.

Do it yourself. Now, This doesn't mean do it all yourself. Now here's there's three different ways you can do this. Basically, you can actually do it all yourself.

You can learn it all yourself, take the time, etc. etc. And you know, not elicit anyone's help at all. And that is certainly possible with you can learn almost anything online these days.

Do it yourself. It's very cheap to learn yourself, but hey, it takes time and effort. Especially when what Brandon Brendan wants here is, you know, a professional, safe, polished product. If it's a mains related product, for example, you know you're not going to do the compliance yourself and things like that.

So you've got a, you know, and you want to get it first, go through the compliance house or whatever. so you know you really have no choice but to and get the help of a professional design company / bureau there. And what's the second one? Um, like you've got a list here. All your you can either do it mostly yourself, but also get freelance help.

Brendon Was talking about freelance help and stuff like that. Yes, that is certainly possible. and the third option is get a freelance person to basically do it for a cut of the profits so it doesn't say you're not paying an hourly rate which can be in the hundreds of dollars per hour. you know, don't Maybe if you go on Fiverr or one of the other job site you know one of the other freelancer or whatever sites year you might be able to in theory get people cheap.

but are they any good is one of the questions. So you really need an electronics design professional who is produced? You know, safe. Consumer are not necessarily consumer in this case, but safe industrial, niche products and things like that. You know real finish, polished product, a professional product and this is what Brendan wants.

Now the I probably don't recommend that third option of taking someone on as a you know, got a cut of the profits because then they'll want to start to control it and this and that and it just gets all messy. It's like it can work. but I would it's better if you can get someone, just pay them an hourly rate and get the job or a job rate or something and get the job done. Now how do you do this? Where do you get the money from I Said, you know, don't go to a bank and get a loan and all that other crap.

Okay, that's huge risk and you're probably gonna like the odds are not good. I'm not not going to say you're going to fail, but the odds are not good. They're the best way to do this is with a pre-sales bootstrapping type technique because as I said right at the start, if you have already talked to your Custer this is very common in this tree if you're working for a company. Okay and you can say hey, I can design well.

It's a bit harder if you're an employee, but say a former company that you used to work for or you know somebody who works there or something like that you can say hey, I can solve your problem with this widget and if you go, show them this widget then and demonstrate that you know it can. It can really solve the problem for them. Then they might give you some pre-sales they might go hey, we like this. Give us ten units as a trial.

Bingo. You'll get some cash, you'll get some. Maybe you might get half the money up front or something like that. Do a deal.

you know you've got to do some NRI and other stuff and and or they might give you all the money up front and say please deliver Anyway, you can get some money up front that way and that's a really good way to go about it. Then you have money to hire, but you've got to be sure that you can deliver and that's part of the risk is that are etc. So but that is a definitely a good way to do it and then use the returns from those ten units or a hundred units to bootstrap and sell even more. They'll likely come back and buy more again.

Once you've actually delivered something improving that you can deliver something even if it's not perfect, they might go Okay, that was. You know these ten are sort of working in a little trial and or something like that on the production line. If it's an industrial widget which Brendan's talking about industrial type solution and each application, then they might trial it out on. you know, maybe a little part of their production line or something like that or whatever it is.

they'll trial it out and they go. This looks pretty reasonable and then they'll start giving you serious cash in a serious contract to deliver more of the product or more of a complete solution or something like that. Now the problem here is that as I said, you can like, it's a big risk, but that's part of doing business. The other way is you just sort of do it yourself, save up enough money and put that money all into a good prototype.

Now this comes down to sorry I've had that I've heard that comment up there all the time. There you go, That's yep Brendan replied after a few people replied on the forum and said here we go thank you for all your words of wisdom and has helped me think through the process. Yes! I have some done some searching and this product does exist in many forms, however, not in the form in which I plan to implement. It's hard to comment in further thoroughgoing days how I've been in this particular industry for 20 years and innovation in this particular control product hasn't changed since the 70s.

The existing hardware in the industry is hard to use clunky like many other features that we can utilize in modern day electronics. Now that's interesting because maybe it hasn't evolved for a reason. Maybe they like simple, robust solutions, or maybe nobody's bothered with that little niche and that can be a goldmine, right? - you can come along with something better, but it's not groundbreaking. It's not a new way of doing it, it's probably just like it's just a refined way to do things.

and in my experience that is that can be a really good solution if you come along with a nice I used to be in production engineering, design and print, automated production, test jigs and stuff like that and that can be like black magic to these people. They're amazed. Like you come along with what's a simple obvious solution to you and they go. That's so easy and streamlined and you get Pat's on the back and high-fives all around and you can be the hero of the day.

And it you know just by having a simple solution in a different way of doing things. Now the problem here is that you have to have a prototype. You can't go to any one. be it an investor, be it a design house, design bureau, a freelance, or whatever with just I've got this great idea.

Can you make it for me? They're just gonna roll their eyes and you know, say some reasonably nice things. But basically thanks, but no thanks. I'm not gonna waste my time because it's a bigger risk. So the if you can do as much of the prototype as you can Brendan says he's a hobbyist, so you know, fantastic and it's easy to do professional-looking products yourself these days.

As I said, the manufacturing do-it-yourself manufacturing revolution PCBs At dirt cheap and PCBs can be used as front panels. off-the-shelf enclosures. So cheap, so professional. even custom machined enclosures go to Aliexpress Talk to one of the million extruded aluminium manufacturers out there.

They'll do all you think punched holes you want. 50 of a no problem. it'll be like a couple hundred bucks. Like it's not a huge outlay.

you know. Even if you have to order a couple of hundred minimum or something like that, you know it's It's not in the tens of thousands of dollars, it's in the hundreds to a thousand or two. Which really, if you haven't got that sort of money to pony up to invest in your idea, then, well, you're You know you probably shouldn't be there. You probably should not.

And I Go on kickstart And I'm going into Yo-yo and cross your fingers. Maybe. but yeah, you know you've got to have a couple of grand to put into something. but you can do a lot.

With a couple of thousand dollars ensign and a lot of time these days and commitment and enthusiasm, you can do it off a lot. now. As I said, oh, here we go. let's read the rest of it.

I Feel My best path is to first develop a prototype to physically show the functionality of the product. Yep, my question would be how would an engineer can So Dean House Reactor. When I walk in with his beginner hobbiest prototype and ask them to turn it into a commercial product, Do I look like a time waster? How does my prototype have to be? Know how good does my prototype have to be be to be taken seriously? Sure. I can put a development board in a box connected to censors buttons and write a program to get a working demo.

But as this is that enough, Yes, it most certainly is. As I said, you can't just turn up with nothing. But if you turn up with a prototype that shows, most of the fun doesn't have to show at all, but it's You know if we can show how for most of the functionality crudely that you're after and if it's sort of, it's obvious to the person, the client, the customer how that solves their problem, then you know it's that's more than good enough. Its orders of magnitude ahead of going in with just an idea in a couple of sketches.

You know it's same with a design house, a design bureau, or a freelance engineer that you hire on one of the freelancer sites or find somewhere else by the eevblog for many people have found advertised for you know someone to do a job on there and there's a job section on the eevblog forum. You can put your people with all content and put up your thing of what you want. It's people without expertise will contact you, etc. and if you can show them a working prototype plus I think you mentioned documentation as well if you've got documentation and stuff like that.

If we can show the majority of that sort of stuff working, but it needs spit-and-polish or whatever, that's fine. Engineers Especially professional consulting Design engineers are very good at instantly recognizing how much work is involved in something. They'll look at your prototype, they'll look at the function area, Look at you have a very clear list. This is important.

Very clear list of what you want to achieve and don't deviate from that. And you know that because that'll be written into the contract and exactly what you want as a deliverable and stuff like that. they're very good at knowing. You know, look okay.

It lacks this feature, but hey, I can add that, with a couple of hours coding or okay, it needs to be safety compliance. I've done that before I know it cost. You know, $5,000 with what's a name though and plant. Add that into the quote I Know people who can do that and you know or it might need a machined enclosure.

It might need a molded enclosure or something like that. And that's the other thing there are. Be careful when you go and get quotes for this thing you asked about. Can you farm around for quotes? Yes, You most certainly can if you've got the prototype and you can show them.

And maybe if it's a online thing, you might put a video up so that they can see, show it operating and all your documentation and stuff. And where was? I Mental block is going really well there to be taken seriously. A development board in a box connect? Yes, there are two. Be careful when you do this because you might get a contractor advisor, freelancer, or whatever design house to tell you that all you've got to do it this way.

You need a $50,000 injection molded you know, tool in and all that sort of stuff beginning. You know to do this and this and you need all sorts of stuff. You only going to make a thousand of them. And it's an industrial widget and it doesn't have to look that great.

it just has to be. You know, professional, polished, and robust a bit, Then if they're quoting you 50k for tooling for a you know, an injection molded case or something like that to look fancy pantsy, then ya know you've got the wrong person. But likewise, if you want to make, if your idea is to make a hundred thousand of these and they're coming back with oh yeah, we can use this, you know, extruded aluminium case and we can get you know, the holes drilled here and we can just use wiring and everything, then no, that's not a polished, streamlined solution suitable for manufacturing. You know, a million of these widgets are a couple hundred thousand, or even tens of thousands.

You might have to put more into how it goes. You know most of your time might be spent assembly and testing and stuff like that, and that's the sort of stuff you need to streamline. But if you're making you know hundred a hundred industrial widgets and it's a different ballgame. So just make sure that the person is in the same ballpark that your product is.

and I Guess that comes down to experience, but because you're in our electronics hobbyist, you've been working in the industry for 20 years. You should have a good feel for that. But somebody who comes along, somebody who's an ideas person, an inventor that comes along and goes to one of these design houses they just get least. they'll happily take your money and spend a year on it and you won't.

There's so many horror stories out there of doing the wrong thing. but yeah, you can just get a freelancer, so no problem at all. And you as long as you have that prototype and you can do an awful lot, you can make a professional looking, polished product with no tooling. Virtually no tooling cost at all.

Really, you know, 50 bucks for a PCB front panel? what do you do you know? And it's got all the holes, cut out and everything. and you can wire it inside nice and neat. Or you can, you know, use right-angle headers to put things together and stuff like that. It's not hard at all.

I've done several videos on that sort of thing, so there you go. That is not. it's not hard at all. Has that answered the question? How long have I been going for too long? But yes, it's possible.

So yeah, I recommend putting as much work in as possible to get that prototype made. See if you can bootstrap it. bootstrap like a pre-sale kind of thing to a client and let them, you know, let the client be your investor so to speak, rather than you know getting a don't follow that MBA playbook because that's gonna end badly. Odds on.

So yeah, anyway. helped Brendan they didn't want too much I probably did. probably didn't even get to the point. Anyway, that's in a single take.

evey blab if you want to help. Brendan down below comments on the way that Brendon should do this. You know any more good advice. Does my advice suck? It may very well.

So yeah, comment to the Eevblog thread down below. So I'll put the thread that Brendan's got I won't put a blab thread for this one a separate one I don't want to dilute the the chat and stuff like that. But anyway, yeah, bebe blab if you liked it, give it a big thumbs up if you want me to do this more often. Just like a single take thing answering a beginner question on the beginner section of the forum.

Not not necessarily to be a beginner section, but yeah, I can do that bit waffle until I'll catch you next time.