Dave explains and demonstrates how out of phase digital signals can effectively double your voltage. The magic of moving your reference point. And how you can verify this with a differential probe.
A question bought up in the comments of the previous LCD driving video.
The HVP70 High Voltage Differential Probe
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A question bought up in the comments of the previous LCD driving video.
The HVP70 High Voltage Differential Probe
Coupon code "bargainprobe"
http://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/'>http://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/
http://amzn.to/2Bk4AnY
EEVblog Main Web Site: http://www.eevblog.com
The 2nd EEVblog Channel: http://www.youtube.com/EEVblog2
Support the EEVblog through Patreon!
http://www.patreon.com/eevblog
Donate With Bitcoin & Other Crypto Currencies!
https://www.eevblog.com/crypto-currency/
EEVblog Amazon Store (Dave gets a cut):
http://astore.amazon.com/eevblogstore-20
T-Shirts: http://teespring.com/stores/eevblog
๐ Likecoin โ Coins for Likes: https://likecoin.pro/ @eevblog/dil9/hcq3
Hi. In my previous video, we looked at drive-in LCD displays and I'll link that one in down below and at the end. for those who haven't seen it because it might not make a huge amount of sense. although I'll try to explain it without requiring the other video.
This is a response video to some comments on the previous video. A couple of people couldn't quite figure out how we were getting the voltage doubling across here cuz what we were doing is driving an LCD with a 5 volt digital logic and XOR gate and a buffer here. Just you know, 5 volt TTL type logic are in fact it. We showed an example with an Arduino actually driving the thing and we magically got +5 volts and minus 5 volts down here for a total of 10 volts peak-to-peak Where does the 10 volts peak-to-peak come from? They couldn't quite figure it out when you only had a single 5 volt supply, and effectively just by adding some digital logic gates with magically magically created 10 volts peak-to-peak How is this possible? So they thought, eh, maybe I actually got it wrong.
or maybe the math measurement I showed it on the oscilloscope was actually wrong and it was the wrong scale or something like that. No, that's not the case. It is. we do actually get 10 volts peak-to-peak across this LCD for a 5 volt supply.
so it is actually really voltage doubling and stick around I'll actually demonstrate in a minute. now. let me actually redraw this and try and explain it a bit clearer cuz it's a lot of people rightly don't understand this alternate phase thing and actually getting a difference or a subtraction function, a difference function of a waveform and how it can actually double the voltage. So let's say that we have a 7 for HC o for inverter, for example.
you're familiar with those I'll show you this on the bench in a minute that this actually does work and is powered from your typical +5 volt. So you got +5 volts and you've got your circuit ground down here and you're feeding a 5 volt peak-to-peak square wave. And of course, if you measure just the output here, we'll call that B You get your five volt peak-to-peak square wave, right? It goes from zero to five. Zero, Five Zero five.
But if we probe across a and B the input and the output here because they're got alternate phases because it's inverted and this is exactly what we're doing with the LCD we're effectively connecting the LCD across the input and the output of an inverter. Like that, you magically get 10 volts peak-to-peak And this is not just some theoretical, you know, magical pie-in-the-sky thing. You actually get 10 volts peak-to-peak because you're subtracting a minus B You're getting a difference function and that gives you double your voltage. but it's still not clear.
I'll try and explain further. Now let's say you've got an oscilloscope. Here's my crude oscilloscope. This is the screen and we got our positive and negative input ie.
like that's our BNC input, the probe positive and your ground clip lead is your negative. Okay, so let's assume that we connect single-ended Lee to the circuit common here with your ground clip LED on your oscilloscope and then you probe either signal A or B like this. What will you see? Obviously, you'll see exactly what you expect a five Volt if that's the ground reference on your scope that you'll see a positive zero to five volt peak-to-peak signal regardless of anywhere in your digital circuit. you probe because you're measuring everything relative to the circuit common. so that's what everyone's familiar with doing exactly this. But when you're talking about a different signal which we're looking at here, you've got to not think in terms of the circuit common. That is incorrect when you're actually measuring a difference. one signal minus another signal a difference.
A A differential probe, for example, just measures the difference between the two input lines. It's not a relative to anything and we'll demonstrate this on the bench in a minute. So you've got to wrap your head around not trying to think in terms of relative to the circuit voltage. So let's demonstrate this by taking out the negative ground lead of our source code.
Ground is not the same as Circa ground here unless you actually connect it to the circuit ground. So let's actually connect that up to point A up there and then let's probe point B there. What you end up seeing here is this signal going negative I Use that term in quote marks because it's relative to the negative input here, not to this circuit ground. So we'll try another way to think of it.
If you use the ground as your reference, then what do you get? You get a waveform that switches between plus five relative to this and this reference. ie. +50 right? So that's your regular TTL signal that you're familiar with. But if you take your reference from up here, what happens? You've changed your entire reference.
It's no longer relative to this ground. So what if you move your reference? not from here going like this, but up to here like this. If you've got a zero on the end, just assume you've got a zit. Imagine you've got a zero on the input there.
Well, the outputs are one right? It's positive. So it goes from zero to +5 volts. But then what happens if you've got a 1 here. What happens to the output here? Well, it's got to go to a zero.
So it actually flips negative down like this. It flips to another level. but - 5 volts like this, so it actually toggles. If you use this as a reference, it tolls between plus minus five.
Like that, effectively, you basically get a voltage doubling peak to peak. so you're effectively going from like this to this. Your reference is now up here and you're flipping like that. So you're flipping the polarity so it's got to be double relative to one of those pins.
I Hope that's clear, let's just go to the bench and verify this. Okay, so what I've got here is a seven 4hc, one four which is a Hex Schmidt inverter two Schmitt trigger. It's just the same as the Oaf Orbit. It's got Schmidt inputs anyway. I powered that from our five volts and I'm probing the input and the output. So I'm just feeding in a one kilohertz square wave and we're getting the inverted out. So Channel 1 Channel 2. So let's have a look up on the scope here and exactly what we get.
This is exactly the same as the last video. Basically, we've got 5 volts per division here. Okay, so 5 volts and 5 volts with both channels and you'll see that there. 1 division and so there.
5 volts peak-to-peak signals Channel A and Channel B and you'll note that they're out of phase when one's 0, the others high, and vice-versa So our LCD has hooked across those two pins and this actually gives you a good indication of what's going to happen. your voltage reference. Actually, instead of being ground here, we shifted up to here and you'll note that it goes up by one division and down by one division. And if we look at our math function here, we've got a minus B which is our basically a diff differential function and the scale is 5 volts and the comment has said or maybe had the scale wrong.
it's doing it wrong but no look, it's actually 10 volts peak-to-peak But is this something happy funny happening in this Scylla scope? Is this math operator incorrect? Well we have a way to verify this. So if you don't trust pesky math functions like this I'm sure you will trust an instrument available on the Eevblog store by the way at a discount price. If you put in the coupon code bargain probe it's anyway. it's linked in down below you can and on Amazon.com as well.
it's on a hundred bucks off on Amazon Anyway, this is the Evo Eevblog Hvp 70 differential probe. A very nice differential probe. If I may so say myself, it's a 10 to 1 division ratio and this measures the true differential voltage between these two probes. So we can put these probes across the input and the output here.
and we'll do that. We'll hook input and I'll put it for convenience sake. There we go. We've hooked it across the input and the output, so our voltage reference is no longer relative to our signal ground input.
Here, these scope probes do not matter anymore. It's measuring the absolute differential voltage across the input and the output and what are we get? Well, let's switch on Channel 3 which is 5 volts per division and let's have a look. where is our signal? It's that purple one there. Tada.
It matches absolutely perfectly to the software mathematical function that we had in there, which was the you know, the A Minus B It's exactly right. 5 volts per division. It's 10 volts peak-to-peak across the input and the output. So if you put your LCD or anything else across the input and output of a digital logic gate like that, you get 10 volts a real 10 volts peak-to-peak simply changing your reference. As I said from, you know, I base it a little ground down there. It's sort of like it's shifting up so to speak. I Know this isn't a hundred percent accurate thing, but it kind of gives you an idea of how changing your circuit reference ground can actually give you double the voltage. So anyway, I hope you found that video interesting I Hope that's an adequate explanation if I come up with something a better physical representation of of how this actually works.
or if you got a better way to explain this, then leave it in the comments Anyway, if you liked the video, please give it a big thumbs up. And as always discussed down below, catch you next time.
Hello, I need a specially designed monochrome tn screen, I want to have it produced, but I cannot have it produced because I do not know how to draw or design it. Can you help me?
I used this method to drive a piezo-buzzer directly from MCU. Just using two output pins that worked complementary. It's just an equivalent of an H-bridge cirquit. It not doubles your voltage but it doubles the amount of work that current does because instead of "working/not working" cycle it's doing "working forward/working backward" cycle.
Put a piezzo buzzer from 2nd inverter output to ground. Then put it across the inverter and notice how much louder it is.
Please make video for biasing 1/3 and 1/4 what is it.
Back for a 2nd suck of the salve…. It's that good and clearly I'm slow. Thank you Ausi-Man
My way to say what I think I know :
* take an oscilloscope.
* Put it on DC, with the 0V nicely set in the middle.
* Connect a 9V battery to the input, the line goes up 9V.
* Disconnect the battery, the line returns to 0.
* Reverse the polarity of the battery.
* Connect the 9V battery to the input, the line goes down 9V.
* Difference between upper- and lower line is 18V.
What I missed was the connection of a resistor and a capacitor that would be charged to the 10V DC. That must be possible and convincing ?
only "voltage doublers" I know are boost converters and amplifiers. This looks like a simple polarity switch to me.
Iโm really interested in that diff probe. Any reviews or videos on it explaining what itโs useful for and whatnot? Iโm looking to probe around switchmode power supplies, especially measuring their noise and power quality etc. Would this fit the bill in not blowing my lowly USB oscilloscope (or the computer attached to it) to high heaven, or do I need an isolated probe instead? I want to do this safely and with minimal or no risk of letting the smoke out of anything, and Iโm happy to pay for that safety.
That said. Any videos on this? Cheers!
So, let's say that you take your first signal as your reference "ground", it's:
"gnd" = 0v
"live" = 5v
result = +5v
Then, you have:
"gnd" = 5v
"live" = 0v
result = your "live" is now 5v under your "gnd", so the result is -5v
If you measure a 5v transformer, the same thing happens: the signals reverse polarity respective to each other, but you have your probe connected to one of the transformer's wires, so you only see a signal turning positive and negative on the screen, but really, the two output wires are just switching polarity. "Rotating" around each other, if you like. Of course, if you think about how the generator on the power plant works, then that explains why the signals are rotating around each other.
Dave always says "I'll link that video down below," but I can never find the links. Is he posting them somewhere else (not on Youtube)?
Do you own stock in Excederine headache pills? I now understand your explanation which goes against all my normal logical thinking and training. I really now want a differential scope probe but would not use it in my day to day work. It's 10:1 but wouldn't an amplified differential probe be more useful ?
Dave, they are still not getting it, to such an extent that they are calling us "thick" for believing it is really 10vpp. Apparently WE are the stupid ones. You're going to have to come up with a more convincing argument. Maybe lightbulbs? Afterall, if a lightbulb is brighter, it MUST have more voltage across it. I'm starting to think it's the only thing that will convince them.
It is mind numbing that some commenters (some of whom claim to be engineers!) cannot grasp this incredibly simple concept that any proper engineer had mastered by the age of about seven.
Dave, honestly, this is the type of topic/video I love to see on eevblog. Same for the reference to your scope gnd ref video. These sometimes not so intuitive aspects are my preferred topic. I would subscribe to this chan again if there was such a thing. ๐
The key to this "mystery" is probably the reference to the inverted signal as the signal levels are switching simultaneously in opposite directions, effectively doubling the voltage (relative to the LCD and w/o gnd ref). And as you already mentioned in the last video, the LCD only wants to see the difference in potential on one pin relative to another. GND is irrelevant here.
Thanks, again, and thumbs up!
The point is that Dave doesn't make sure people don't start to believe that there is a measurable 10V drop between two points at any given time. I thought this would have been very important to point out, albeit countless cues. teaching is a tough job.
By the way, nice move Dave, all this chatter has occurred while you sneakily ( kudos to you) introduced your differential probe.
It works! I just simulated it with LTSpiceXVII. Input signal = 5 volts at 1KHz, outputs labeled A and B, 10 V P-P displayed by taking V(A) – V(B) which displays as 10V P-P at 1KHz.
Dave, I love you – but I think you have this one wrong.
The crux of the matter is that Vp-p is not a voltage. It is an amplitude whose units are volts and that is calculated from actual voltages, but at different points in time. We can't stick a resistor across Vp-p because it is merely a calculated feature of the waveform. Importantly, it is not the feature that defines the voltage of a periodic waveform. This is defined as the DC voltage which would deliver equivalent power into a resistive load; the square root of the average of V^2 over time i.e. root-mean-squared (RMS).
In this case, no two points in the circuit are ever more than 5V apart and the waveform on the o-scope is [-5,5] NOT [0,10] . When we use the formula for RMS on this waveform, V^2 is always 25 and the RMS voltage is 5 which satisfies our intuition. In order to leverage voltage differences across time would require energy storage and reactive components that aren't present in the circuit.
Hi Dave.
First thanks your awesome videos, support you with Patreon is because patreon little bit harder, but continue still that ๐
Want to ask can you do video how protect DC circuit (microprosessor,sensors) circuit what have example quite powerfull dc motor both directions and inductive spikes gives problems.
I think TVS diodes, inductors, power chokes, everything what can use protect sentivive circuit on "same" circuit example with DC motor.
Bridge tied load magic ๐
I've used this technique to produce 9 volts from a 5 volt supply, very useful for circuit setups that require duel voltage but you don't want to add two battery types, in my case I was running from a 5 volt usb battery pack normally used for smartphones.